11-03-2005 15:30									#1
	EU divided over whether to start Croatia talks Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: EU stalls over talks with Croatia European Union countries have failed to agree on whether to start entry talks with Croatia, which has not yet handed over a top war crimes suspect.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4337777.stm



Basically, a postponement of talks seems likely.



UK and Netherlands are being a pain in the ass, while Austria and friendly central European countries are pushing in our favour.


Conspiracy theories abound here as people compete to give a better explanation for why Brits are hating us. Nobody knows for sure.

Well let me tell you one thing! We're going to enter EU sooner or later and hopefully we'll remember who our friends were!

	11-03-2005 15:45									#2
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The EU should start negociations with Croatia anyway, but it should handle the issue Turkey-style. I.e. "You do what we tell you or you'll never be in".

I actually think the new negociation style (where the candidate country is not sure to join in the end anymore) is a good idea, because it will avoid disappointments with the quality of would-be members

	11-03-2005 15:50									#3
	Re: EU divided over whether to start Croatia talks Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion UK and Netherlands are being a pain in the ass, while Austria and friendly central European countries are pushing in our favour.

My God, Austria doesn't care about War Criminals!

	11-03-2005 16:02									#4
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Nah just good cop bad cop.. then again, EU could never play that, since there's no cooperation to a level needed, or friendliness .

"which has not yet handed over a top war crimes suspect."

What is the deal with this, why are they not handed over yet?

	11-03-2005 16:19									#5
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion UK and Netherlands are being a pain in the ass, while Austria and friendly central European countries are pushing in our favour. Conspiracy theories abound here as people compete to give a better explanation for why Brits are hating us. Nobody knows for sure.

Offer United Kingdom residents free tacky Club 18-30 holidays to some of your better nudist beaches, and free pints of brandy at airports.

That should do it.


(I'm sure you haven't forgotten, how a previous British Tory government were very well-disposed to Serbia-Montenegro. They wanted a 'level playing field', and it had nothing to do with the privatization of state services, I'm sure :

Following extensive negotiations with possible buyers in which an important role was played by Douglas Hurd, Pauline Neville-Jones and Lamberto Dini, an agreement was reached in July 1996 for the sale of Telecom for about 1.5 billion deutschmarks. The buyers, Italy’s Telecom Italia and Greece’s OTE, paid the money into an account in a Cypriot bank while for its part NatWest Markets received a commission of 30 million deutschmarks from the Italian and Greek buyers. The sales contract itself was for the rest of Milošević’s term in office kept as the strictest state secret. Not even the Ministers of Telecommunications were allowed to see it.

http://www.southslavjournal.com/mil..._miljcovic.html )

	12-03-2005 03:46									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin My God, Austria doesn't care about War Criminals!

What a well founded analysis.

	12-03-2005 03:48									#7
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quote: while Austria

of course... ex-Nazi's are sticking up for ex-Nazi Collaborators...

	12-03-2005 08:41									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The EU should start negociations with Croatia anyway, but it should handle the issue Turkey-style. I.e. "You do what we tell you or you'll never be in". I actually think the new negociation style (where the candidate country is not sure to join in the end anymore) is a good idea, because it will avoid disappointments with the quality of would-be members

Hey, I agree wholehartedly , but since it's my ass on the line, I disagree wholehartedly

	12-03-2005 08:44									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Sava of course... ex-Nazi's are sticking up for ex-Nazi Collaborators...

What do you mean by Ex?

Sieg heil!

	12-03-2005 08:54									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Nah just good cop bad cop..

A bit of that, yeah.

quote: "which has not yet handed over a top war crimes suspect." What is the deal with this, why are they not handed over yet?

Gen. Gotovina is in hiding. It's a big controversy here. The government is saying he is not in Croatia, that they are doing everything to find him and they can't, so he must be somwhere else. He's also an ex French foreign legion member, so there is speculation that he is in France, Italy, Paraguay or any number of places where he has contacts.

British have spies in Croatia and are claiming that Croatian government is not doing everything it can to catch the fugitive, which they claim is indeed hiding in Croatia, but have no proof of it either.

It is a condition for Croatian EU talks to start that we extradict this guy to Hague.

Problem with that is, if someone spotted him on the street, he/she probably wouldn't call the police anyway. He is considered a hero by many, and is being accused on basis of command responsability articles of the Hague statute which are widely considered unfair here.

	12-03-2005 08:59									#11
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molly,

Yeah, I know about the famous sale of Serbian Telecom. I pull it as an argument all the time, when some leftist wannabies start claiming that Milosevic was taken down by the West because he was the "last socialist in Europe" . I didn't know Douglas Hurd was involved though.

	12-03-2005 11:38									#12
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Being half croat, i think they should hand him over. If he is innocent, that will be established. If not, serbia stands a better chance of being admited.

	12-03-2005 19:01									#13
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quote: UK and Netherlands are being a pain in the ass, while Austria and friendly central European countries are pushing in our favour. Conspiracy theories abound here as people compete to give a better explanation for why Brits are hating us. Nobody knows for sure.

I guess ideological differences play a less important role. It has been pushed lately with turkey, but if same could be said for croatia - I don't think so.
I think it's more economic reasons. Croatia is a big money-hole for the coming years.
Ultimatively though, with the possibility of turkey joining, croatia will eventually become a member sooner or later.

	12-03-2005 19:42									#14
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For me, not even talking to Croatia based on an individual case would be complete BS. If Croatia would simply ignore the Hague court, I'd agree. If there's proof that Gotovina is in Croatia, hand over the intelligence and if Croatia doesn't act, make it public. If there's no proof, this is somehow similar to the WoMD claim before the Iraq war. Someone's hiding the real reasons for not wanting Croatia in the EU.
I lament, however, that what Vet says is true, that the fact that Gotovina is a hero among many is the more disturbing part. Croatian warry nationalism is disturbing (very disturbing, and I must know as I live within the radius of Croatian sports hooligans...), but then again, that's no reason not to start talks. In Turkey, there are severe human rights issues, but talks are made. Imagine Austria or Germany had blocked Czech Rep. or Slovenia from entering because of the Benes and Avnoj-decrees - THE HORROR (don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that should have been done). In some EU members there are also issues, like the "compassionate conservative catholicism" (is this euphemism better, Hereson? ) in Poland or Italy's goverment's problem with the rule of law etc.
Not even starting talks with Croatia on accusations in single case is absolutely unfair.

	12-03-2005 20:59									#15
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I don't think nationalism should be seen as problem. In fact I think it's necessary as a counterbalance to the EU consuming everything part.
I've been very much in favor of the EU and I still am, it's the only tool to build a politically and economically competitive europe for the future. But I am much less of a fan of standardization over europe and the silent destruction of the different cultures. We shall always remain a multicultural society, the only thing needed is more respect and I think going hard against nationalism will just create a sharper and colder atmosphere and produce much more dangerous nationalism.

	12-03-2005 21:13									#16
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Hmm... so this is about one suspected war criminal? There must be more to it than this. If this was the case, I don't see any obstacles for the negotiations... But then again, it's pretty set in stone that they will start and everything will go well, at least when it comes to joining EU. Then again it doesn't make sense to make 'better' deal for EU because it's about Croatia joining, right, so I don't get it.

Besides, a person you described could be almost impossible to find, if his wishes are to stay underground, given he most likely has contacts all over the world who will help him for sure, and he has first hand experience and knowledge on these things so he really knows how to hide I bet. Who knows where he is, I guess no one from the official sides, because if anyone from EU would know, they'd tip the Croatian government for SURE. Again if Croatians would know, I guess they would catch him ASAP, I don't know this person but I doubt he has much value to Croatia so why not. So maybe he really has escaped to be discovered in the far future.

edit: ah just remembered your post saying he is not necessarily considered a war criminal in there. WELL GOOD luck finding him then... there needs to be a good price on his head, then he will be found. With no considerable price, he won't be found.

	17-03-2005 23:24									#17
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Croatia bites the dust.

EU decided to postpone the talks.

	17-03-2005 23:27									#19
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It takes a unanimous decision in the council of ministers, so this couldn't pass as many countries were against. Still, Hungary, Slovenia, Austria (basically, Habsburg empire ) Malta and a country or two supported us anyway. Thanks to them.

The rest of the ****** led by Britain can stick a 100 euro note where the sun doesn't shine

	17-03-2005 23:28									#20
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Sava thanks for the support

	17-03-2005 23:29									#21
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Hmm... I can see why. It's not going to do relations with Serbia/Montenegro any good unless we insist Croatian war criminals get the same treatment as Serb ones.


How about a level playing field? Isn't that important for diplomacy and democracy?

	17-03-2005 23:30									#22
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No.

Why do you people hate us?

	17-03-2005 23:34									#23
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Why do you people hate us?

here's a clue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustase

	17-03-2005 23:37									#24
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Sava you are a half Serb, half American, can there be a worse combination?

	17-03-2005 23:37									#25
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion No. Why do you people hate us?

We DON'T - Croatia and Bosnia Herzegovina get a lot of respect in this country.

Likewise, Serbia is seen as a big bad bully by the majority of people...

... it's the DIPLOMACY thing. Serbia has had the crap bombed out of it over Kosovo - if we keep kicking them (or don't kick you just as hard as them) then the hardliners in Serbia get more support.

If everybody gets the same rules (punish ALL the war criminals) then nobody can say "We were picked on! You didn't play fair with us!"

Get it now?

	17-03-2005 23:38									#26
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Sava you are a half Serb, half American, can there be a worse combination?

actually I'm a quarter Macedon, a quarter Slovak, a quarter Serb, and a quarter Croat... born in America.

	17-03-2005 23:38									#27
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I mention it so people know why you are spreading propaganda, of course. You are Serb emigrant and think Croats are at fault for everything. That's the way it goes.

	17-03-2005 23:39									#28
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion I mention it so people know why you are spreading propaganda, of course. You are Serb emigrant and think Croats are at fault for everything. That's the way it goes.

and you are a holocaust denier...

wikipedia is propaganda?

	17-03-2005 23:40									#29
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Oh, you are quarter Croat too? There's hope

	17-03-2005 23:42									#30
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Oh, you are quarter Croat too? There's hope

just based on my own experience with the Croat and Serb sides of the family, there isn't really much of a difference between the two... only the Croat's rarely acknowledge the crimes they committed... like yourself.