14-03-2005 07:55									#1
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Just wondering... is there anybody at Apolyton that wants to have some serious Civ2 fun? There are probably enough ideas in the threads already...

1) A comparison game, such as the Holiday one. I was waiting on SlowThinker to start something, but he is thinking very slowly these days, and nobody else has expressed much interest.

2) ST's idea of a duel (fast 2-player PBEM). Basically, I am waiting on someone to take up my challenge.

3) I would be interested in starting a new PBEM of some sort, perhaps with modified rules to insure at least one move per player per week.

4) Playing through a great scenario together, perhaps with a little guidance from a pro.

5) Studying some aspect of the game. For example, "conquering in the industrial age" or whatever... oh well... Nevermind.

	15-03-2005 02:39									#2
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I've been thinking of an OCC Comparison Game, but did not get much interest over at CFC. Any here?

	15-03-2005 05:08									#3
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Yeah, I know .... "not much interest" means "just Peaster, and even he is not too sure".

	15-03-2005 07:59									#4
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I haven't played OCC for a while, but would be glad to try.

	16-03-2005 08:05									#5
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An OCC comparison sounds like fun, since we haven't had one in quite a while. Anyone have a start that looks interesting for an OCC game?

	16-03-2005 08:47									#6
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Disclaimer: Peaster has only built one spaceship - ever! So, I would probably only participate in an OCC game if I could somehow do it as a student.

	16-03-2005 12:09									#7
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I'd probably participate in an OC game, although I'd prefer an early landing game. Incidentally I'd find it easier if the game is 2.42 rather than MGE.

RJM at Sleeper's

	16-03-2005 18:50									#8
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Peaster - It's fun, in its non-ICS sort of strange way... You won't do any worse than me!

	16-03-2005 19:16									#9
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Grigor - I would do MUCH worse than you! You'd be suprised how little I know about civ2 outside of ICS and EC. I'd like to learn more, but jumping into a competitive Deity/OCC sounds pretty crazy.

	16-03-2005 21:00									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster Grigor - I would do MUCH worse than you! You'd be suprised how little I know about civ2 outside of ICS and EC. I'd like to learn more, but jumping into a competitive Deity/OCC sounds pretty crazy.

There's no requirement to win your first OCC game!

Participate, learn about it a little, and have some fun.

RJM,

I'd like to try another ELG sometime, too, but it looks like you and me are the only ones so far.

All,

This is a little off topic, but I have been involved in another game called Dominions, which is turn-based and much more detailed and harder to master than Civ II. I'd recommend it highly to others that enjoy Civ II. It is about perfect for PBEM games, since progress through the different stages of the game is much quicker than in Civ II. I'm participating in my first Dominions PBEM in the Other Games Forum, and have survived so far against the other more experienced players, but the end for me may come very soon!

	16-03-2005 22:28									#11
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I am not afraid of failing, but I would not be able to contribute much to your fun. Kind of like the August tournament. Unless maybe you ENJOYED my stupid questions, like "what's a restart?".

I assume EL is a little easier than OCC, so I'd be more likely to join in that, but I suggest you choose whichever sounds like more fun.

	16-03-2005 22:40									#12
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I've got a few 2.42 starting saves that have decent OCC possibilities that I have not played yet. I'm also interested in an EL - we could make it a EL/OCC option, or start two parallel threads...

	16-03-2005 23:36									#13
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I think OCC is much easier than EL.

I'm more in the mood for an OCC game. If others want to play then Elephant can post a start and we can get going.

	17-03-2005 05:24									#14
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I find EL not only difficult but tremendously time consuming because of the need to be accurate about Trade. (I also can't figure out what to do when my Civ gets out of balance and the techs start coming every 174 turns).

OCC is inherently quicker becaus only one city needs micromanaging.

Ready anytime, Elephant!

	17-03-2005 12:36									#15
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OK. I guess I'll try a OCC. I read the Paulicy tonight and played a game. I got bogged down towards the end, losing all my engineers to starvation, pollution and commotion, but it doesn't seem impossible.

	17-03-2005 13:00									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant I've got a few 2.42 starting saves that have decent OCC possibilities that I have not played yet. I'm also interested in an EL - we could make it a EL/OCC option, or start two parallel threads...

Go for it Mr Pachyderm - a 2.42 start with possibilities of either EL or OCC sounds good to me.

I assume we will follow the "better ball" format. Any thoughts on how we manage parallel threads for OCC and EL. I'd quite like to take part in both. There is a risk of information about the map from one game influencing the other, but I suspect this is not too big a problem. I suspect mainly the information would go from EL to OCC and since the cities wouldn't necessarily be the same, the illicit information wouldn't be very useful. Would it be OK if I promise to play each game with a different half of my brain?

RJM at Sleeper's

	19-03-2005 20:40									#17
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I think we all agree on playing OCC from one of Elephant's saves (Elephant....?). People can also play EL if they want.

I am not sure we've agreed on playing best ball. It is OK with me, since it seems to generate more discussion. On the other hand, there is no clear winner at the end.

IMO people should state their rule preferences, if any, and the game leader should decide. If Elephant doesn't return soon, maybe somebody else can post a save.

	20-03-2005 01:59									#18
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Patience, Iago...

What's the consensus on format - a straight Comparison game, a "best ball" game, a Succession game? Or shall I just post a start and let everyone do what they want? Some RCC would be nice, perhaps via breakpoints.

Opinions?

	20-03-2005 09:36									#19
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Well, I am happy to see that solo is back with us (btw - welcome back!), and I'd be happy to give my vote to him. In case he doesn't want it, I'd prefer comparison with RCC breakpoints, or a best-ball. If we have enough people, I'd prefer best-ball with two teams. Preferably starting within 1-2 days. In case you just wanted a simple answer... well, OK, I vote for comparison + breakpoints.

	20-03-2005 11:34									#20
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My vote is for:

A) discussion of objectives and tactics for current session
B) independent play of set number of turns or until a specified event
C) RCC
D) choose save and repeat.

This is more or less the format of our recent "better ball" games. I'd prefer a single team (ie no competition between teams for earliest landing). I'd also like separate attempts at OCC and EL with players free to contribute to either.

RJM at Sleeper's

	20-03-2005 20:37									#21
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I'll go with what the majority wants.

	20-03-2005 21:36									#22
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Best ball was great fun in two teams. The one team version stalled on a strategy issue. This OCC version should work better because of the inherently unified strategy. When it is just a comparison of tactics I find it fascinating to see how others handle the details.

	23-03-2005 03:05									#23
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Elephant....?

I can accept any of the proposed formats. Let's go!!

	24-03-2005 10:50									#24
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If Elephant can give us a definite date that he will post a save, I am willing to wait a little longer. But read the end of the Holiday spoiler, and you may understand my lack of infinite patience.

I have never played OCC and don't know what makes an interesting start. I have located 2 saves at CFC we could probably choose from. Both are Emperor level:

GOTM16 - 2 out of 3 posted attempts at OCC succeeded. IIRC there's a whale and a coal special visible, plus lots of ocean.

GOTM17 - 1 success. It is 4000BC, but the first city has already been placed, with 3-4 specials visible. The save is in scenario mode for some reason. IIRC, Grigor played this GOTM for conquest, but I doubt he remembers the map (2002).

I think there are also some old saves attached to the Paulicy, probably all Deity level, but maybe some of you have played those already. Or, I can just create a random map if you want.

Any more opinions on the format? I like teams, but we only have 5 players and there is always the danger of drop-outs. As Grigor said, best ball with one team didn't work quite as well, but we could try it again with OCC.

	24-03-2005 11:21									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster I have never played OCC and don't know what makes an interesting start. I have located 2 saves at CFC we could probably choose from. Both are Emperor level: GOTM16 - 2 out of 3 posted attempts at OCC succeeded. IIRC there's a whale and a coal special visible, plus lots of ocean. GOTM17 - 1 success. It is 4000BC, but the first city has already been placed, with 3-4 specials visible. The save is in scenario mode for some reason. IIRC, Grigor played this GOTM for conquest, but I doubt he remembers the map (2002). I think there are also some old saves attached to the Paulicy, probably all Deity level, but maybe some of you have played those already. Or, I can just create a random map if you want. Any more opinions on the format? I like teams, but we only have 5 players and there is always the danger of drop-outs. As Grigor said, best ball with one team didn't work quite as well, but we could try it again with OCC.

I'd prefer to play deity level and to choose my own site for any city or cities. I don't think we should play in scenario mode. There are differences with the normal game - the way the tech tree operates for example.

I think a random map is worth a try. Let's see what we can do with something straight out of the box. But if you do post a random start, I have a strong preference for 2.42.

If there is sufficient interest, I'd like to see 2 separate efforts - an EL and an OCC.

I suggest you post something for us to look at - we can always change our mind.

RJM at Sleeper's

PS As for what makes an interesting site; I suspect the best site has 4 rivered specials and the rest rivered grassland This may be difficult to arrange. Ocean is OK but not brilliant. The extra trade arrows early on are useful, but even with the harbour it only gives 2 food and only produces shields very late in the game. Mountains and glaciers are very poor except for a single tile with a special - ie a single gold mountain. Forest or plains are fine, but not in excess. Jungle and swamp are not too bad because they can be transformed early. Desert and tundra are unhelpful, although once again a single tile with a special can be good. The odd hill is OK, but not too many.

	24-03-2005 20:44									#26
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This shot is from a random start; Normal map, Deity, Germans, 7civs, RHordes, Std.Rules. I revealed the map to check that it's not ridiculously bad for OCC.

I like RJM's proposal for rules: best ball, one team. If we get 1-2 more players, maybe we can make 2 teams. I suppose the goal in OCC is simple and clear, but shall we agree that "earlier is better"?

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	24-03-2005 21:00									#27
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Here's the save. I suggest we wait 1 more day for the Elephant, and for more opinions on the save and the rules. I suppose OCC goes relatively fast, so shall we play in sets of 30 turns instead of 20 ?

If anybody wants to suggest more background reading, or a plan for the first 30 moves, I'd be grateful. For example, how long can you spend looking for a good site?

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	25-03-2005 12:13									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster Here's the save. I suggest we wait 1 more day for the Elephant, and for more opinions on the save and the rules. I suppose OCC goes relatively fast, so shall we play in sets of 30 turns instead of 20 ? If anybody wants to suggest more background reading, or a plan for the first 30 moves, I'd be grateful. For example, how long can you spend looking for a good site?

OK let's leave the save here for a while before playing.

In an EL game, I'd be quite happy to place my first city at the starting location, but for an OCC, I guess the first few moves must be to explore the general area to see what the best available site is for our one city. It may be that there is only one reasonable site, or it may be there are several. Anyway, rather than play 30 moves, I suggest we play until we found our city. If we all choose the same site, we can then play on to a specific point. But if there are different choices, we can debate them before moving on.

I myself will not be using black-clicking or hut-finder. Do we leave this to personal choice or do we adopt a rule. (I suspect anyone using both of them will be able to spot a good site much more easily than those of us who have to trudge there on foot )

RJM at Sleeper's

	26-03-2005 10:26									#29
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Elephant has started an OCC in a separate thread. I suggest that we start from his save.

	26-03-2005 11:45									#30
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Agreed, but let's remember this save and come back to it later.

RJM at Sleeper's