14-03-2005 21:30									#1
	Refugee Question Put an end to popups!

Is there a plan on what to do if a civ is wiped out early and the members want to remain involved in the game by switching to an active team?

How are the previous two multiplayer team democracy games handeling it?

Personally I think they should be able to join the civ that wiped them out without waiting (captured), maybe in extend it to any civ somehow involved in combat with them during the last turn.

And maybe if their in game allies with another civ for the past five turns, allow them to instantly transfer to that team (they were on holiday in their allies land during the final days of their own civ)

But if it's some other civ maybe there should be a five turn delay. (On the run trying to avoid capture between their capital and the desired civ they want to join?)

	14-03-2005 22:19									#2
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Planning to be wiped out?

I think the only team (so far) that has been completely wiped out in the other two in-house demo games was Lux Invicta and several of their members joined other teams, while the leader Trip became the overseer of the game (Sauron's evil eye )

	14-03-2005 23:02									#3
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I think members should be allowed to join, without delay or at least without much of it, any civ they had contact with, whether that be the civ who wiped them out, an ally of their original civ, or another civ altogether.

What I'm not sure about is if refugees should be allowed at all to join a civ their old team never had contact with.

	14-03-2005 23:32									#4
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quote: I think members should be allowed to join, without delay or at least without much of it, any civ they had contact with, whether that be the civ who wiped them out, an ally of their original civ, or another civ altogether. What I'm not sure about is if refugees should be allowed at all to join a civ their old team never had contact with.

(I'm to lazy to type it out, so I waited for someone else to do the job for me )

	15-03-2005 04:34									#5
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An ally of the team they were on, sure. Absolutely not to an opponent with, and I'd say not to a team they had no contact with or were not friendly with ... too much information could be shared.

I'd say that the teams left should vote on it if it happens, and with the assumption that part of the vote is how many turns delay are allowed.

	15-03-2005 06:32									#6
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 An ally of the team they were on, sure. Absolutely not to an opponent with

Why not? It would be a little strange, but what's the harm?

	15-03-2005 06:37									#7
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I say that if a team is wiped-out early in the game, we shouldn't have any stipulations on what team they can rejoin. If a team accepts them, fine. That's between the individual player and the team he/she wants to join.

So the individual might have some intelligence on the party who wiped his first civ out.....so what? Such is war.

If you wipe out an entire civ....of course you are going to have people running into the countryside with possible information that you would prefer be kept secret - but you did wipe-out their civilization! I say suck it up and move on! This is just another cost of war.

	16-03-2005 21:50									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich I say that if a team is wiped-out early in the game, we shouldn't have any stipulations on what team they can rejoin. If a team accepts them, fine. That's between the individual player and the team he/she wants to join. So the individual might have some intelligence on the party who wiped his first civ out.....so what? Such is war. If you wipe out an entire civ....of course you are going to have people running into the countryside with possible information that you would prefer be kept secret - but you did wipe-out their civilization! I say suck it up and move on! This is just another cost of war.

The Horde agrees with this statement.

Such is war. Indeed!!!

	16-03-2005 22:11									#9
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I'm fine with free movement of refugees.

However, I like the taste of capturing a civ and its inhabitants. This will truly make some integration efforts, hence, a little bit of a destabilization risk. Maybe the victorious civ can be allowed to "disband" the people they capture, which leaves them free to join a befriended civ.

I'm fine with whatever is decided, I just like the idea of extrapolation of the game's features.

	16-03-2005 23:53									#10
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Considering you have no choice in the matter of by whom you're conquered, that would be forcing refugees to stick to a team. I think you'd see entire teams not re-joining the game when their team was conquered, in that case. (Would you really want to join the team that wiped you out?) I think joining any team you had contact with gives as many options as possible without damaging the in-game mechanics of inter-continental contact and such.

	17-03-2005 00:29									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Considering you have no choice in the matter of by whom you're conquered, that would be forcing refugees to stick to a team. I think you'd see entire teams not re-joining the game when their team was conquered, in that case. (Would you really want to join the team that wiped you out?) I think joining any team you had contact with gives as many options as possible without damaging the in-game mechanics of inter-continental contact and such.

I'm glad you understand the interesting mechanisms I was aiming at...

	17-03-2005 00:57									#12
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I'm assuming that the "players" on the teams are members of the rulling class for the below:

ex leaders of have historicaly conquered countries went to their conquers for a virtiety of reasons:

1. Their own country's defeat convinces them that their conquers way of live / civilization is better.

2. Some of them are just going to sabotage their conquerors country from within if they get the chance.

3. Their fed up at thier own ex-leaders for not listening to them and glady go over to the conquers. (Only to later $&*( and moan about the new leaders not listening to them any more than the previous ones did.)

4. Occanisonly they had already sold out to that other civ, and had been actively working against their own country, but this type is seldom trusted by the conquerors. (Whom, if he sold them out he might sell us out ...)

	17-03-2005 01:26									#13
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Sounds all quite feasible...

I especially got a good laugh from this one...

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn 3. Their fed up at thier own ex-leaders for not listening to them and glady go over to the conquers. (Only to later $&*( and moan about the new leaders not listening to them any more than the previous ones did.)

So easy to see the Great Lord Xxxx in this role

	18-03-2005 03:13									#14
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Let refugees join any team they had contact with in-game. Sould give the refugees enough options while keeping close to the original SP game-mechanics.

	18-03-2005 22:52									#15
	Put an end to popups!

"joining any team in the game" and "joining any team they had contact with" may turn out to be somewhat similar.

quote: Let refugees join any team they had contact with in-game. Sould give the refugees enough options while keeping close to the original SP game-mechanics.

	19-03-2005 05:47									#16
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After the civ was conquered, its members might alos to join in this case civs, that the conqueror had contact with. If not all civs are going to be available.

	21-03-2005 13:00									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot So easy to see the Great Lord Xxxx in this role

Ahem

	21-03-2005 13:02									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich If you wipe out an entire civ....of course you are going to have people running into the countryside....

Civ2 Partisans!

	22-03-2005 03:02									#19
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I vote for allowing the player to join any civ that they had contact with in the game.

	22-03-2005 07:48									#20
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I have to insist that players not be allowed to join teams opposed to their own, for a lengthy period of time. There is too much chance of private information that was shared between allies being passed on to the opposing team. Any other team the civ has contact with should be acceptable, but not a team that was at war with the civ that lost any time close to the end game, and not any team that is by general consensus on the 'other side'.

	22-03-2005 09:45									#21
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I disagree strongly Snoop.

If you believe that team members from a civ you are about to destroy have information about you that you don't want spread around (perhaps even gained from their diplomatic conversations with other teams), then you need to factor that into your decision to wipe them out. Perhaps you even need to open diplomatic communications with individual team members before destroying their civ.

I hadn't really thought about this aspect much before, but I think this additional diplomatic dynamic adds a terrific avenue of potential for additional intelligence gathering and espionage.

In fact, I'd go so far as to permit defection from one team to another at any time, with certain restrictions (such as, a defector may never return to his original team, or may only defect a maximum of 1 or 2 times, etc).

Makes for some great Machiavellian scheming in this final, mother-of-all Civ3 DemoGames!

	23-03-2005 08:50									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 I hadn't really thought about this aspect much before, but I think this additional diplomatic dynamic adds a terrific avenue of potential for additional intelligence gathering and espionage. In fact, I'd go so far as to permit defection from one team to another at any time, with certain restrictions (such as, a defector may never return to his original team, or may only defect a maximum of 1 or 2 times, etc). Makes for some great Machiavellian scheming in this final, mother-of-all Civ3 DemoGames!

Hmmm...Interesting proposition. This may need some serious discussion for future demogames.

Very interesting...

	23-03-2005 13:31									#23
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Just like in real-life... you have to get a permanant visa to live in the country and go through a process to become a "voting" member. I think most nations in this game will look closely at those citizens conquered and review them before allowing them in. I don't think anybody should be allowed to become a citizen of another nation w/ out the approval of that nation; hence I don't see that there should be any problems concerning this issue.

*I do have to say though that I agree that it would be somewhat entertaining for the conquerors to either bring them in or defect them. Even if espionage or internal rioting would occur, I would think the leaders and citizens have a chosen vote to defect those guilty of such a crime. Perhaps in the case of a team being eliminated, a special U.N. council should be held to dicuss and vote on the possibilites. Just a thought.

	24-03-2005 01:16									#24
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I might have missunderstood Snoopy, but I thought he was going more for the idea that if 1 of 2 ally's gets wiped out, and the descimated team can freely join any other team, then the Ally left in the game might get screwed over, due to a more open dialog that once existed with the refugees.

On the other hand, real world would suggest at least the possibility of joining the country that wiped out your civilization, and the aggressor gaining any knowledge that could be gotten out of the refugee.

If we are truly going for a Democracy game, then it should be left up to the team that the refugee wishes to join. Why would a team that is enemies of the refugee allow them to join, unless they are taking them on due to being the ones that actually caused their refugeeness?

	24-03-2005 01:31									#25
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I definately think a member of a wipe out civ should have to get permission from the team he wishes to join.

A policy on refugees within our civ is now in the works that would ensure that only those that admire our superior culture would be allowed to join.

Unoffical Babylonian Science Minister

	24-03-2005 02:32									#26
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he has to have permission - how could someone access the private forum of a team if he is not a member of that team?

	26-03-2005 00:38									#27
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or said refugees could stick around and help the game move along

be a pain in the side of those who take too long to play, etc

I do play well with others, and I will bring my fluffy pillow