15-03-2005 21:12									#31
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morons ?



it gives away your feelings for religion...

	15-03-2005 21:13									#32
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damn i mean mormons...right?

	15-03-2005 21:16									#33
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what's the difference between the superior and the supreme court?

	15-03-2005 21:18									#34
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One has the final say in this case and the other one doesn't.

	15-03-2005 21:25									#35
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and what about their members?

	15-03-2005 21:27									#36
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They are different.

	15-03-2005 21:28									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword i already asked this in a another thread...is it true that morMons or some other religion is allowed to marriage one or more partners?

Officially, no, unless you belong to one of the splinter churches. De facto the church allows it, unless there's a lot of media attention, in which case they crack down on an especially egregious case or two in order to be seen as doing something.

The only real problem I have with Mormon polygamy is that, especially in the splinter sects, these marriages are often incestuous and coerced. Frequently cousins and nieces are forced to marry other cousins or uncles, often when they are as young as twelve. When it's a practice between consenting adults, I've no problem with it.

	15-03-2005 21:30									#38
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so they are not marriaged by the state? and it isnt legal...hmz...

	15-03-2005 21:33									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword so they are not marriaged by the state? and it isnt legal...hmz...

Correct. Polygamy is illegal in 49 states. Interestingly enough, it is legal in New York, in a back door way. In NY, it is not illegal to be married to more than one person. It is illegal to get married to more than one person. The statute of limitations is five years, so if you can escape justice for that long, viola!

	16-03-2005 00:03									#40
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Before I comment, I will read the decision itself. I was impressed by the fact that the judge was a Catholic Republican appointee, just like the Mass. Supreme Court justices who earlier ruled on this issue. Republican Catholic judges seem to be taking the lead on this issue, which belies the smears of opponents of gay marriage that the issue is being driven by looney leftist judges.

http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/gl...age31405opn.pdf

	16-03-2005 00:21									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin To be fair the state goverment repeatedly proved they were to partisan and/or incompetant to be trusted with the funds. They kept cutting education to pay for junk special interest programs so voters passed a law saying 40% of income must be spent on education. In order to save those pet projects the politicians continually raised property taxes until they were through the roof so voters passed a law which capped property taxes at a certain percentage and made it require a 2/3 majority in order to raise taxes.

True, the government under several governors has mismanaged funds quite a bit, but the system should at least be receptive to good governance, if we ever get it. With so much of the budget tied up in voter-initiated programs, there's not really even a chance that a good government could potentially solve this thing. Though I think a higher majority for raising taxes would be a good thing, certainly.

I don't think some republicans are so bad; what I don't get is the seemingly neurotic obsession with lowering taxes. It seems to defy all sense to cut taxes when confronted with a massive revenue shortfall. I may never understand exactly why the governor cut the car tax as his first act in office... well, I guess I do, it was a campaign promise.

	16-03-2005 00:41									#42
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I've now read the opinion. I think it is well written and fundamentally correct. The greatest problem the traditionalists have in justifying opposite sex marriage is illustrated in the two paragraphs beginning at page 22, line 15. There the asserted reason of "procreation" for justifying the gender classifications distinctions is rebutted by the observation that the ability to procreate is not required for opposite sex couples.

I think a constitutional amendment is probably the only way to keep traditional marriage.

	16-03-2005 00:45									#43
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I don't think some republicans are so bad; what I don't get is the seemingly neurotic obsession with lowering taxes. It seems to defy all sense to cut taxes when confronted with a massive revenue shortfall. I may never understand exactly why the governor cut the car tax as his first act in office... well, I guess I do, it was a campaign promise.

cyclotron7, I have no idea why this thread got into Republican bashing as the Judges who have been writing these opinions both in Mass. and in California are Republicans.

	16-03-2005 00:48									#44
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C, as to taxes, the Republican urge to lower taxes (particularly tax rates and other taxes that amount to social engineering) is a reaction to the Dems mania for raising them not just to fund governmental programs, but to conduct social engineering, i.e, socialism.

	16-03-2005 00:49									#45
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states rights *****es.

	16-03-2005 01:01									#46
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sorry for the threadjack but socialism is the way of the future! ...

so if i get this right some people thing that marriage is partly there to get childern?...hmz...interesting point of view when you think that all major regilion thinks that sex is bad and childer have no rights...

	16-03-2005 01:28									#47
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Ned must think doing anything good, moral and compassionate like helping the poor makes you an evil liberal commie who hates America and loves terrorism.

	16-03-2005 04:58									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Ned must think doing anything good, moral and compassionate like helping the poor makes you an evil liberal commie who hates America and loves terrorism.

Odin, being a follower of Christ, I think taking care of the poor is mandatory. What I do not think, though, that stripping people of their rightfully gained money as a form of punishment, which is the essence of socialism, is right. Christianity also teaches that envy is a sin just as much as not taking care of the poor. Socialism truly does not care so much about taking care of the poor as it is about envy.

	16-03-2005 05:18									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ned cyclotron7, I have no idea why this thread got into Republican bashing as the Judges who have been writing these opinions both in Mass. and in California are Republicans.

I apologize, I don't think I was Republican-bashing, some of us got off track talking about California politics generally. You're absolutely right, will stop now.

Anyway... It looks like mayor Newsom's offensive payed off, but I'm still wondering what this means for him in the long run. Whatever the final result, he's certainly increased his visibility nationwide, and (probably) secured the mayorship for as long as he cares to keep it. All the talk of him being an upcoming "Democratic superstar" flys in the face of what seems to be obvious: most people in America don't want gay marriage.

I've read most, but not all of the decision, and I can't find any holes in their logic, but I'm chiefly concerned with the impact this will have on the Democrats.

And furthermore, if because of this California passes an amendment of the state constitution banning gay marriage, won't Newsom's gamble have damaged their cause more than it aided it?

	16-03-2005 05:24									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Odin, being a follower of Christ, I think taking care of the poor is mandatory. What I do not think, though, that stripping people of their rightfully gained money as a form of punishment, which is the essence of socialism, is right. Christianity also teaches that envy is a sin just as much as not taking care of the poor. Socialism truly does not care so much about taking care of the poor as it is about envy.

You conveniently leave out that Jesus told a rich guy that if he want's to go to heaven he must give away all his earthly belongings, or when he said that the meek will inheret the Earth. Good Christians, like my family (who would be categorized as religious progressives) would be FOR wealth redistrobution. My family would call you a sinner for your support of greed.

	16-03-2005 12:33									#51
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It will take some time, but eventually same-sex marriages will be legal throughout the US. As long as sexual orientation is recognized as a divisor between majority and minority at the federal level, that makes being gay a protected minority. No discriminating. What will come after it, that's what will be interesting. As the polygamists will come out and sue for their right to contractually screw up their lives as well.

	16-03-2005 12:45									#52
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Oh great the gay marriage will cause polygamy argument. Polygamy was legal before. Additionally people made the same argument for inter-racial marriages.. it didn't quite happen now did it?

	16-03-2005 13:09									#53
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Polygamy got outlawed quite a long time ago. That's why the Mormons headed off for the desert... they were persecuted for practicing such outdated paganism. Even then, the Mormons tried several ways to continue their religious practice.

Inter-racial marriages does enable gay marriage in many of the states that haven't yet made a state constitutional amendment against it. Equal protection, no discrimination terms feature prominently in such legislation.

In a few short years after same sex marriage, we will see a lot of wacky cases... like people wanting to marry their horses or sheep. But we will see the polygamous also file for their own rights to marry. And there won't be legal standing to resist it (between consenting adults), once the right to marry whoever you want is federally established, regardless of sex, race, religion, etc. Otherwise, they are being discriminated against. Consider fundamental Muslims or Mormon polygamous, for instance. You'd be discrimininating against their religion. That would never stand up in court, once you have removed any claims that marriage is a procreation factory or some form of child creche.

That isn't a reason to stop gay marriage. It isn't an argument against it. The only strong argument against gay marriage is that I'm for it.

	16-03-2005 13:25									#54
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Gay marriage has nothing to do with polygamy, really. Nor does it have to do with bestiality. Those are cop-outs that were typically used against inter-racial marriage. Total cop-outs. Gay marriage is between two adults, not more then two, and certainly not between a human and an animal. So your argument just doesn't hold.

	16-03-2005 13:29									#55
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quote: Gay marriage has nothing to do with polygamy, really. Nor does it have to do with bestiality.

All three are examples of non-traditional marriage. And what is so wrong with marriage between more than two consenting adults?

	16-03-2005 13:30									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Gay marriage has nothing to do with polygamy, really. Nor does it have to do with bestiality. All three are examples of non-traditional marriage. And what is so wrong with marriage between more than two consenting adults?

This is just another cop-out. Stop comparing gay marriage to bestiality and polygamy. It just isn't a good argument. It never has been never will be...

	16-03-2005 13:33									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo This is just another cop-out. Stop comparing gay marriage to bestiality and polygamy. It just isn't a good argument. It never has been never will be...

Is gay marriage a traditional form of marriage?

And once again, why are you such a bigot in dealing with polygamy?

	16-03-2005 13:34									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Is gay marriage a traditional form of marriage? And once again, why are you such a bigot in dealing with polygamy?

Gay marriage is between two adults.

I never said polygamy was wrong. I don't really care. So don't use logical fallacies.

	16-03-2005 13:41									#59
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marriage is a contract between indivifuals. people who qualify are:
1.straights
2.gays
3.polygamists
4.anyone i forgot.

so its quite simple. straight marriage=gay marriage=polygamist marriage

	16-03-2005 13:44									#60
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quote: Gay marriage is between two adults.

And traditional marriage is between a man and a woman. Gay marriage is not traditional.

I do wonder why homosexuals recoil when their rights are linked to polygamist rights. What is so wrong with polygamists?

The fact of the matter is that allowing homosexuals to marry will open the door. There will be no exclusive club anymore and maybe groups like polygamists won't have to hide their faith and be able to get married like they used to.

It seems like homosexuals just want themselves to go through the door and shut that door behind them.