15-03-2005 06:13									#1
	Gay Marriages: San Francisco California Superior Court Ruling Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Here is the actual court order on same-sex marriage. Be warned: this PDF file is 27 pages long.....but it makes for some good reading just the same.

For those who do not want to read through 27 pages of legal jargon....basically, The Superior Court has ruled that marriage being strictly limited to a man and a woman is against the California Constitution.

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/...age31405opn.pdf

	15-03-2005 06:17									#3
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Well we have to get the California State Supreme Court to rule on this... cause the Superior Court could be overrided..

	15-03-2005 06:31									#4
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True Fez, the Supremes could reverse the trial court. But it'll be hard to argue around the violation of the equal protections clause. Massachusettes' Supreme Court couldn't do it.

Here in California, there's alsready a push to get an initiative on the ballot this November, this one to amend the Constitution to ban gay marriages. It's going to be a weird election...no one's running for anything...just initiatives.

	15-03-2005 06:33									#5
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I certainly want this to stick! No doubt about it. But I want to hold off any judgement until it sticks.

	15-03-2005 06:43									#6
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Fez (sorry, Giancarlo), if you haven't downloaded the PDF file yet - I suggest you do and read though it. It really makes it hard for the CA Supreme Court to over-rule the CA Superior Court's findings.....The battle should prove very interesting to say the least.

	15-03-2005 06:46									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Fez (sorry, Giancarlo), if you haven't downloaded the PDF file yet - I suggest you do and read though it. It really makes it hard for the CA Supreme Court to over-rule the CA Superior Court's findings.....The battle should prove very interesting to say the least.

Yes, but not impossible. I'm just not going to keep my hopes up.. just to find them dashed by the Supreme court or by the initiatives that are on the election.

	15-03-2005 06:47									#8
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Great, more fuel for the fire for gay-marriage opponents. They'll probably get gay marriage bans in several other states out of this...

	15-03-2005 06:49									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Great, more fuel for the fire for gay-marriage opponents. They'll probably get gay marriage bans in several other states out of this...

No they won't, because those on the side of freedom will eventually prevail.

	15-03-2005 06:52									#10
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"It's going to be a weird election...no one's running for anything...just initiatives"

California democracy is kewl. I wish we had it here in Canada.

	15-03-2005 06:55									#11
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California democracy is the reason California is in the mess it is.

	15-03-2005 07:10									#12
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Says someone who doesn't live here.

	15-03-2005 08:57									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker "It's going to be a weird election...no one's running for anything...just initiatives" California democracy is kewl. I wish we had it here in Canada.

No one runs for anything in Canada either, but for entirely different reasons.

	15-03-2005 09:31									#14
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It's good and bad. Everyone likes to be able to vote on things directly, and it is certainly more democratic, but a lot of our current financial trouble has resulted from the budget being carved up by voter initiatives until there's actually very little left for the state government to work with.

I like the system, but there should be some sort of cap on what proportion of the state budget the voters can affect directly, so we don't go overboard.

	15-03-2005 09:44									#15
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To be fair the state goverment repeatedly proved they were to partisan and/or incompetant to be trusted with the funds. They kept cutting education to pay for junk special interest programs so voters passed a law saying 40% of income must be spent on education. In order to save those pet projects the politicians continually raised property taxes until they were through the roof so voters passed a law which capped property taxes at a certain percentage and made it require a 2/3 majority in order to raise taxes.

Currently the government spends to much because politicians get reelected by acting like the candy man to every special interest they can find (look how Grey Davis pandered to the Prison Guard's union by tripling their salaries). The problem seems clear to me; the state house has once again proven it can't be trusted so we need to make it damn hard for them to borrow money. Enter a balanced budget amendment.

	15-03-2005 10:46									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin To be fair the state goverment repeatedly proved they were to partisan and/or incompetant to be trusted with the funds. They kept cutting education to pay for junk special interest programs so voters passed a law saying 40% of income must be spent on education. In order to save those pet projects the politicians continually raised property taxes until they were through the roof so voters passed a law which capped property taxes at a certain percentage and made it require a 2/3 majority in order to raise taxes.

Your history's not quite right. What happened is Gov. Reagan wanted to cut taxes but not services, and yet he was required to submit a balanced budget. So his moved a bunch of the more expensive programs from the state down to the county level. The counties' only tax was the property tax, so they had to raise it; retirees folks started losing their houses, and presto: Prop 13 came into being.

quote: Balanced budget amendment

We've always had a balanced budget amendment.

Davis violated it by borrowing to "balance" his budget & he got recalled. The Govenator borrowed even more money but passed a redundant proposition saying he couldn't ever borrow again. His second year, he borrowed again.

	15-03-2005 10:47									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Currently the government spends to much because politicians get reelected by acting like the candy man to every special interest they can find (look how Grey Davis pandered to the Prison Guard's union by tripling their salaries). The problem seems clear to me; the state house has once again proven it can't be trusted so we need to make it damn hard for them to borrow money. Enter a balanced budget amendment.

That is the problem with American system of government.. We are so pluralistc (as opposed to countries with proportional representation, which are more majoritarian), that a few people, especially businesspeople, control the agenda instead of the people. The US is not a democracy, it's an oligarchy ruled by the special intrests.

	15-03-2005 10:53									#18
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We are doing very well with Arnold Schwarzenegger... people like Zkribbler are just in denial..

	15-03-2005 11:02									#19
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In Minnesota we are also having a buget row. We have a ~$400 million buget shortfall we must balance because we cannot borrow monney. The Republican governor and his buddies who control the house by a 1 seat margin promised not to raise taxes, education and helthcare spending be damned. The Democrats, which have a strong majority in the Senate, want to raise taxes to fully fund the things the Repukes want to cut. And of course, the Republicans, as usual, have to bring up gay marrige as a distraction (Minnesota is fiscally liberal, but is socially conservative, especially in the areas with a large German-American population in the south) because most Minnesotans don't like the governor's proposed cuts.

	15-03-2005 12:13									#20
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I suspect were it to come to a ballot iniative, there would be another gay marriage ban in California. Gay marriage really isn't popular in this country.

	15-03-2005 12:15									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I suspect were it to come to a ballot iniative, there would be another gay marriage ban in California. Gay marriage really isn't popular in this country.

Don't count on California. It is the opposite nowadays (more are in favor). When the previous gay marriage ban was done it passed by a very razor thin margin.

	15-03-2005 12:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Don't count on California. It is the opposite nowadays (more are in favor). When the previous gay marriage ban was done it passed by a very razor thin margin.

link to a poll?

In 2004 Gay Marriage Bans passed overwhelmingly, even in states and some counties that went for Kerry.

	15-03-2005 12:30									#23
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The only real blue state that went for the Bigot Law 2004 was surprising was Oregon.

	15-03-2005 12:32									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi link to a poll? In 2004 Gay Marriage Bans passed overwhelmingly, even in states and some counties that went for Kerry.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic.../02/26/POLL.TMP

"The statewide poll found that 50 percent of those surveyed disapproved of same-sex marriage, while 44 percent are in favor. When the Field Poll first asked the question 27 years ago, only 28 percent voiced approval and 59 percent were opposed. In the years since, there has been a steady but slow rise in acceptance, polls have shown."

This state is increasingly going in our favor.

	15-03-2005 12:57									#25
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from http://www.usoutofsf.com/

quote: That's right, America, we here in San Francisco are officially sick of your ****, and we're not going to take it anymore.

	15-03-2005 13:12									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi link to a poll? In 2004 Gay Marriage Bans passed overwhelmingly, even in states and some counties that went for Kerry.

In California, people opposing a constitutional amendment banning Gay Marriage, outnumber those who support such a move by 13%.

quote: Half the voters surveyed do not approve of same-sex marriage, while 44 percent do. But 54 percent oppose a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage while 41 percent support such an amendment. The poll of registered voters was conducted Feb. 18 through Sunday, before President George W. Bush endorsed a constitutional ban Tuesday.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/...-1n26field.html

	15-03-2005 15:10									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler We've always had a balanced budget amendment. Davis violated it by borrowing to "balance" his budget & he got recalled. The Govenator borrowed even more money but passed a redundant proposition saying he couldn't ever borrow again. His second year, he borrowed again.

To my knowledge the state does not have a balanced budget amendment thus our long running debt crisis. Proposition 57 we a bill Arnie championed which authorized billions in new bonds and promised to balance the budget with in a certain time frame but it is not a balanced budget amendment which is why he & the Democrats in the state house can break it with ease.

We need to actually change the constitution to remove their powers to borrow except in emergencies or war time and we need to cap the amount of time emergencies can be declared (to like 2 years in 10). I remember how we passed a proposition allocating money for roads and mass transit but it contained a loop hole which said if the legislature declares it neciissary then the funds can be used for other purposes. Guess what the bastards have said every year for the last 15 years it has been necissary to steal the roads and mass transit money. Even the boom years of the 90's with record tax revenue was supposedly an emergency financial period.

The bottom line is the politicians can't be trusted so the people need to use their right to public propositions to force the politicians to do the right thing.

	15-03-2005 15:16									#28
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Murdoch, the state court's ruling yesterday said that unless the state's constitution is changed then gay marriage is protected under the states equal protection clause. You're saing the majority are against an amendment to ban gay marriage so this seems like a done deal unless the state Supreme Court over turns it.

	15-03-2005 19:57									#29
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Equal rights
Bigots

	15-03-2005 21:09									#30
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i already asked this in a another thread...is it true that morMons or some other religion is allowed to marriage one or more partners? i know in the good old days it was allowed...if this is still true than the whole discussion about gay marriage is void and gays should be able to marriage in the US as well

EDIT: stupid stupid stupid typo