Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Off-Topic > The New CIA- Now kidnapping Muslims Europeans :b
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!
20.Sep: FOURTH CHAPTER IN `HISTORY OF...` PUBLISHED
13.Sep: NEWS ON THE FLY
06.Sep: APOLYTON DONATES TO HURRICANE RELIEF

bottom of page
   - CIVILIZATION 3 $9.99 - CIVILIZATION 2 from $6.95 - CIVILIZATION 2 from $4.25 - ALPHA CENTAURI + ALIEN CROSSFIRE (laptop collection) from $19.99 - ALPHA CENTAURI PC $9.99 -->
Author
Thread   
Pages (2): [ 1   2   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 20:50
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
The New CIA- Now kidnapping Muslims Europeans :b Enter the AD-FREE zone

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7164399/

Yup, who doesn;t love freedom, open courts, and a justice system? Oh, right, the Bush amdin....

quote:
Europeans probe CIA role in abductions
Terror suspects possibly taken to nations that torture
By Craig Whitlock
Updated: 11:53 p.m. ET March 12, 2005

MILAN - A radical Egyptian cleric known as Abu Omar was walking to a Milan mosque for noon prayers in February 2003 when he was grabbed on the sidewalk by two men, sprayed in the face with chemicals and stuffed into a van. He hasn't been seen since.

ilan investigators, however, now appear to be close to identifying his kidnappers. Last month, officials showed up at Aviano Air Base in northern Italy and demanded records of any American planes that had flown into or out of the joint U.S.-Italian military installation around the time of the abduction. They also asked for logs of vehicles that had entered the base.

Shadowy practice probed
Italian authorities suspect the Egyptian was the target of a CIA-sponsored operation known as rendition, in which terrorism suspects are forcibly taken for interrogation to countries where torture is practiced.

The Italian probe is one of three official investigations that have surfaced in the past year into renditions believed to have taken place in Western Europe. Although the CIA usually carries out the operations with the help or blessing of friendly local intelligence agencies, law enforcement authorities in Italy, Germany and Sweden are examining whether U.S. agents may have broken local laws by detaining terrorist suspects on European soil and subjecting them to abuse or maltreatment.

The CIA has kept details of rendition cases a closely guarded secret, but has defended the controversial practice as an effective and legal way to prevent terrorism. Intelligence officials have testified that they have relied on the tactic with greater frequency since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Resistance from Europe
The Bush administration has received backing for renditions from governments that have been criticized for their human rights records, including Egypt, Jordan and Pakistan, where many of the suspects are taken for interrogation. But the administration is getting a much different reception in Europe, where lawmakers and prosecutors are questioning whether the practice is a blatant violation of local sovereignty and human rights.

There are many practical and legal hurdles to filing criminal charges against U.S. agents, including the question of whether they are protected by diplomatic immunity and the matter of determining their identity. However, prosecutors in Italy and Germany have not ruled out criminal charges. At the same time, the European investigations are producing new revelations about the suspected U.S. involvement in the disappearances of four men, not including the Egyptian, each of whom claims they were physically abused and later tortured.

Assembling pieces of a puzzle
In Germany, a 41-year-old man, Khaled Masri, has told authorities that he was locked up during a vacation in the Balkans and flown to Kabul, Afghanistan in January 2004, where he was held as a suspected terrorist for four months. He said that only after his captors realized he was not the al Qaeda suspect they were looking for did they take him back to the Balkans and dump him on a hillside along the Albanian border. He recalled his captors spoke English with an American accent.

German prosecutors, after several months of scrutinizing his account, have confirmed several key parts of his story and are investigating it as a kidnapping.

"So far, I've seen no sign that what he's saying is incorrect. Many, many pieces of the puzzle have checked out," said Martin Hofmann, a Munich-based prosecutor overseeing the investigation. "I have to try to find out who held him, who tortured or abused him, and who is responsible for this."

In Sweden, a parliamentary investigation has found that CIA agents wearing hoods orchestrated the forced removal in December 2001 of two Egyptian nationals on a U.S.-registered airplane to Cairo, where the men claimed they were tortured in prison.

One of the men was later exonerated as a terrorism suspect by Egyptian police, while the other remains in prison there. Details of the secret operation have shocked many in Sweden, a leading proponent of human rights.

Although Swedish authorities had secretly invited the CIA to assist in the operation, the disclosures prompted the director of Sweden's security police last week to promise that his agency would never let foreign agents take charge of such a case again.

"In the future we will use Swedish laws, Swedish measures of force and Swedish military aviation when deporting terrorists," Klas Bergenstrand, the security police chief, told reporters. "That way we get full control over the whole situation."

Clues to a mystery
In Milan, the Egyptian-born cleric attracted the attention of counterterrorism police soon after arriving in Italy in 1997 from Albania. Known as Abu Omar, his full name was Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr. He was 42, a veteran fighter from the wars in Bosnia and Afghanistan and a wanted man in Egypt, where authorities had charged him with belonging to an outlawed Islamic radical group.

Nasr frequently preached at two mosques in Milan that have long attracted religious and political extremists, according to Italian and U.S. officials. One of the mosques, a converted garage on Viale Jenner, is classified as a financier of terrorism causes by the U.S. Treasury Department, which has accused it of supporting "the movement of weapons, men and money around the world."

Nasr reinforced the mosque's reputation by preaching angrily against the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan and handing out vitriolic pamphlets criticizing U.S. policy in the Middle East. Italian counterterrorism police tapped his home telephone and kept him under surveillance.

"He was the kind of person who, let's put it this way, did not speak diplomatically," said Abdelhamid Shaari, president of the Islamic Cultural Center at Viale Jenner, who denies that either the mosque or the center sponsor terrorism or illegal activity. "When he attacked America, he did not speak in half-measures. He got right to the point."

A call from afar
When Nasr vanished, his family and mosque leaders reported it as a kidnapping, after a witness said she saw the abduction. The witness, a recent immigrant, said she was scared to repeat her story to the police, however, leading some investigators to speculate that Nasr had disappeared on his own and gone to Iraq to fight U.S. forces.

Italian police opened a missing person investigation, but the case stalled for more than a year. That changed in April 2004, when Nasr's wife unexpectedly received a telephone call from her husband. He told her he had been kidnapped and taken to a U.S. air base in Italy. He said he was then flown to another U.S. base, before being taken to Cairo.

The call was recorded by Italian police, who had kept the wiretap on Nasr's home telephone in place. Although transcripts have not been made public, Nasr's colleagues at the mosque said he reported that he had been tortured and kept naked in subfreezing temperatures in a prison in Cairo.

During the phone call, Nasr told his wife that he had been let out of prison in Egypt but remained under house arrest. His relatives have said they believe he was imprisoned again shortly afterward when news of the recorded conversation was reported by Italian newspapers.

Signs of CIA involvement
The existence of the wiretap is revealed in sealed Italian court papers reviewed by The Washington Post. The documents, dated in the spring of 2004, include a judge's authorization to continue the wiretap and show that investigators were pursuing the theory that covert agents — possibly from the United States, Italy or Egypt — were behind the kidnapping.

Italian investigators have since determined that 15 agents, some of them CIA operatives, were involved in Nasr's abduction, according to reports in Corriere della Sera, a leading Italian daily. Investigators were able to trace calls made by the agents by linking calls made by the same phones near the mosque and Aviano Air Base on the day Nasr vanished, the newspaper reported.

The investigation is being led by Armando Spataro, a well-known counterterrorism prosecutor whose office has also built a hard-nosed reputation for winning convictions in cases involving the Mafia and political corruption. Spataro, who has worked closely with U.S. officials in the past on terrorism cases, confirmed that he visited Aviano last month but declined to comment further.

Capt. Eric Elliott, a U.S. military spokesman at Aviano, said Spataro met at the base for several hours with Italian military officials, who then forwarded a request for records to their American counterparts. Elliott declined to describe the records being sought, citing "an active investigation."

U.S. stays mum
The U.S. Embassy in Rome declined to answer questions about whether American agents were involved in Nasr's disappearance. "We do not comment on intelligence matters," said Ben Duffy, an embassy spokesman.

Italian opposition lawmakers have demanded answers from Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's government on whether Italian agents or intelligence services played a role. But government ministers have remained tight-lipped.

Shaari, the director of the Islamic cultural center in Milan, said some Muslims are worried they could be kidnapped, too.

"If they can take Abu Omar, then they can take anyone," he said. "This is an extremely dangerous precedent, both for the Muslim community and for Italy, as a democratic and free state."

Claims corroborated
In late December 2003, Khaled Masri got into a bitter argument with his wife in their home town of Ulm, Germany. They agreed he should get away for a few days, so he bought a bus ticket for Skopje, Macedonia.

At the Macedonian border on New Year's Eve, immigration officials took a close look at his passport and detained him, without explanation. Other agents later interrogated him and pressed him to admit he was a member of al Qaeda, according to accounts Masri gave his attorney and German prosecutors.

Masri protested his innocence, but was kept under guard in Macedonia for three weeks. He said that one day in late January 2004, he was beaten, stripped, shackled and put on a plane that took him to Afghanistan. There, he was kept in a cell under dismal conditions, deprived of water and repeatedly interrogated. Only after going on a hunger strike, he said, did his captors relent; he was flown back to the Balkans in May 2004.

He said he was released near an Albanian border checkpoint, where guards returned his passport and cash. By the time he made it home, even his wife was reluctant to believe his story, thinking he had left her for another woman, according to his attorney.

German police have questioned Masri several times and said they have found his version consistent and believable. Stamps in his passport show he entered Macedonia and left Albania on the dates he described. The bus driver on the route to Skopje confirmed to investigators that Masri had been on board and was taken away by border guards.

Investigators have conducted a chemical radioisotope analysis of Masri's hair. They said the findings back up his story that he was malnourished while in captivity.

Secret airline ferrying prisoners?
Flight logs also support Masri's claim that he was flown out of Macedonia by U.S. secret agents. Aviation records show a U.S.-registered Boeing jet arrived in Skopje at 9 p.m. on Jan. 23, 2004, and departed about six hours later. Masri had provided German investigators with the same time and date.

The flight plan shows the aircraft was scheduled to go to Kabul, but later amended its route to include a stopover in Baghdad. The existence of the flight logs was first reported by Frontal 21, a news show on the German television network ZDF. A copy of the logs was obtained by The Washington Post.

Records show the jet, with tail number N313P, was registered at the time to a U.S. firm, Premier Executive Transport Services Inc., that records suggest is a CIA front company. The same firm owned another aircraft, a Gulfstream jet, that has been used in other rendition cases, including the one in Sweden.

Masri's attorney and investigators said they think he was abducted because his name is similar to that of an al Qaeda suspect, Khalid Masri, who allegedly played a crucial role in persuading the members of the Hamburg cell that carried out the Sept. 11 attacks to go to Afghanistan, where they first met Osama bin Laden.

Searching for someone to pay
Manfred Gnjidic, the lawyer, said he has asked the U.S. Embassy in Berlin for an explanation of what happened, but has received no response.

"We are quite sure that they were behind this," said Gnjidic. "We are looking for punishment and to hold someone accountable."

Robert Wood, an embassy spokesman, declined to answer specific questions about the case. "But our policy is pretty clear," he said. "The United States does not transfer detainees to countries where we believe it is more likely or not that they will be tortured."

Macedonian officials also had little to say. "Our answer is, no comment," said Goran Pavlovski, spokesman for the Macedonian Interior Ministry. "If the Germans want information, they should ask us about it, and we will respond."

Under German law, prosecutors have the authority to investigate any crime committed against a German citizen, even in foreign lands.

Hofmann, the Munich prosecutor, acknowledged that he has limited powers to investigate cases outside Germany. But he said he is preparing a formal request for legal help from the Macedonian government, as well as from Albanian and Afghan officials.

"I'm confident that other information will be forthcoming," he said. "This case has a considerable political meaning. There's a certain amount of pressure on everyone involved."

Staff researcher Julie Tate in Washington contributed to this report.
© 2005 The Washington Post Company

Space05us is offline Space05us
King

Nov 2001
time: 17:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 20:54
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

Thats an easily solved problem, dont be a terrorist.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 20:56
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by Space05us
Thats an easily solved problem, dont be a terrorist.


MarkG is offline MarkG
Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see

Donate to the Red Cross
Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
time: 07:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 20:58 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

indeed, you have nothing to fear if you dont do anything bad

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 21:17
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

You know I really wouldn't have much of a moral problem if they were getting the right people. However, this (Masri's attorney and investigators said they think he was abducted because his name is similar to that of an al Qaeda suspect, Khalid Masri,) doesn't really seem to be the case. Policy wise it's a bad idea cuz it alienates allies for something that is likely to be of little value.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 21:24 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
You know I really wouldn't have much of a moral problem if they were getting the right people.


That's generally the problem with most government intrusions into our rights. That's one of those super obvious statements.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:18
Question  Old Post 15-03-2005 21:28
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
That's one of those super obvious statements.
Is this your way of agreeing with me?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 21:30 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

In a round about sort of way that leaves open the possiblity of plausable deniablity, maybe.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 21:42
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

That's just fantastic. It's good to see how freedom and human rights are respected.

Wrt OUR fundamental rights, I think the EU should demand with extreme resolve that the US stops this practice immediately and unconditionnaly, at least on our territory. On our part of the world, people aren't supposed to get "erased" like that

MikeH is offline MikeH
Emperor
Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 21:47 Visit MikeH's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

They've been doing it in other countries for ages. Making it happen in Europe is just taking the piss. So what happens to them, taken to Guantanemo?

Kidnapped off foriegn soil with whatever evidence they choose, taken to a foriegn military base and kept there with no legal representation or trial?

Absolutely scandalous. Americans, march on the Whitehouse immediately.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 21:51
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote:
Originally posted by MikeH
So what happens to them, taken to Guantanemo?
Shipped to other countries to be interrogated.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 21:52
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:
Originally posted by MikeH
They've been doing it in other countries for ages. Making it happen in Europe is just taking the piss. So what happens to them, taken to Guantanemo?

Nah, to Egypt and other torture-practicing countries. It's easier, mediatically speaking, to let torture be handled by others.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 21:57
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
On our part of the world, people aren't supposed to get "erased" like that
See not getting the right people and pissing off allies! And for what?

MikeH is offline MikeH
Emperor
Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 22:05 Visit MikeH's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

Nah, to Egypt and other torture-practicing countries. It's easier, mediatically speaking, to let torture be handled by others.


If only they hadn't so comprehensively brainwashed the electorate.

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
King
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 22:19
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

It is quite stupid to practice special methods on the wrong people, or on people who are merely suspects - having little or no intelligence backing things up.

Israel already had a very sad record of this when Mossad killed a Morrocan waiter in Europe instead of a PLO terrorist.

Though, I'm the last person to doubt that an intelligence agency has little or no proof for its actions - it does seem very likely as the people in question were later released and apparently found completely unrelated to muslim terrorism.

These special methods shouldn't be used that much, because they are "special" and you only use it on people for whom you have sound proof of their terrorist activities.

Random bag searching is one thing. Random kidnapping and torture is another.


What is funny to me, is that Italian police is investigating a case with suspected involvement of Italian secret service. How is that possible? I'd expect the secret service to block access to the needed information or simply demanding the police to drop it.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 22:22 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

In some democracies, Siro, the police take their jobs seriously, even when it points to the government doing something illegal.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 22:24
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:

Investigators have conducted a chemical radioisotope analysis of Masri's hair. They said the findings back up his story that he was malnourished while in captivity.


Malnurished yes, but didn't he claim to be on a hunger strike?

MikeH is offline MikeH
Emperor
Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 22:25 Visit MikeH's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Exactly no-one should be above the law.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 22:31
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

I'm with Siro and DD on this one. If these was the only way to nab a Al Qaeda big wig then I'd support it but these are just low level guys or mistaken identy cases.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 22:33
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
I'm with Siro and DD on this one. If these was the only way to nab a Al Qaeda big wig then I'd support it but these are just low level guys or mistaken identy cases.

I strongly doubt you need these techniques to nab Al-Qaeda bigwigs in Europe. I don't think our secret services and antiterrorists are any worse than the CIA.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 22:41
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If the US had had compelling evidence on anyone, they could have easily gone to the local authorities and asked for people to be picked up. That they did not speaks volumes about how rights are being ignored by this admin. left and right.

Cruddy is offline Cruddy
Warlord

Mar 2003
time: 05:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 22:49 Visit Cruddy's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

Ah well, next time a Fed gets kidnapped, tortured and wasted on US soil, they will be a good excuse...

..."This is standard US policy".

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 22:58
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

They wouldn't because then we'd just bomb the crap out of who ever did it.

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 23:06
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

Well not REALLY that surprising, but it does surprise me this happened in Italy. When you look at Europe, Italy is a pretty good allie to the US in this war on terrorism and supporting it. Berlusconi is pretty fanatical buddy of Bush, so this strikes me fairly odd, that it was done like this and not tipping off the Italian authorities to take him in custody and hand him over. Then again that might be a legal problem, if there is no evidence against him. But if there are strong enough suspicions and some evidence showing it, even partial, I'm sure Italians would have caught him anyway. Even question him moderately harshly, if politely asked. So I think it's odd this happend in Italy of all the countries. Then again, maybe it had Italian secret authorities in cooperation. SOme kind of secret segment of the security forces, that wouldn't even tip their own lower level forces like cops etc. Who knows, could be the case too.

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
King
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 23:49
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
In some democracies, Siro, the police take their jobs seriously, even when it points to the government doing something illegal.

Who said anything about illegal?

There are laws and regulations over everything an agency is supposed to do to secure a country. Even when it is .. erm... unstandard

And there are special bodies overseeing the activities of special services. Plus their actions are under the scrutiny of parliament in most countries - so I'd expect such things to flow up in parliamentary inquiries - not in police investigations. That is silly.

I don't realize why would the police even want to involve themselves in secret service bussiness. They will most probably get a direct order from 'above' to stop pushing their noses.

This is how it is in most movies, and most probably how it is in real life

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
King
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
  Old Post 15-03-2005 23:54
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

I strongly doubt you need these techniques to nab Al-Qaeda bigwigs in Europe. I don't think our secret services and antiterrorists are any worse than the CIA.


I assume that this was done, like the article said - with the silent agreement of local secret services - because they couldn't have done such a thing, whether legally (moving out a resident of your country without even minimal legal procedure) or practically (don't have good ties to foreign services who use torture, can't ship people in secret flights etc)

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:18
  Old Post 16-03-2005 00:04
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sorry I didn't even read the article. Siro, it suggest it was done in silent agreement with local secret services? HAH! I knew it! It makes a lot of sense this way. Other way, like I speculated, doesn't make sense, because Italy is reasonable strong ally, and they could work out such deals no problem I reckon, so why go do it alone like that, breaking kind of rules and stuff. I kenw it!" LADADAAA!

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
  Old Post 16-03-2005 00:08
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov


I assume that this was done, like the article said - with the silent agreement of local secret services - because they couldn't have done such a thing, whether legally (moving out a resident of your country without even minimal legal procedure) or practically (don't have good ties to foreign services who use torture, can't ship people in secret flights etc)


Actually, according to the article the taking of people in Sweden and Italy was NOT done with the agreement of local secret services (why its such a huge scandal)- the kidnapping in Macedonia was, but then, it was not of Macedonian citizens, but a German citizen.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:18
  Old Post 16-03-2005 00:23
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

America is no better than the terrorists if this stuff is true.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:18
  Old Post 16-03-2005 00:36
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
Originally posted by Sava
America is no better than the terrorists if this stuff is true.


The Terrorists have won because they pulled us down to thier level.

 
Pages (2): [ 1   2   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:18.
Apolyton Time is 00:18.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0826 seconds (92.64% PHP - 7.36% MySQL) with 30 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net