16-03-2005 03:07									#1
	Italy to pull out of Iraq Support Apolyton

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4352259.stm

quote: Italy 'to pull troops from Iraq' Italy is to begin withdrawing its troops from Iraq in September 2005, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has said. He told Rai state television the pullout would take place "in agreement with our allies". Italy has 3,000 troops in Iraq - the fourth largest foreign contingent. Domestic opposition to Italy's involvement in Iraq intensified after the killing of an Italian agent by US troops in Baghdad earlier this month. The surprise announcement came as Italy's lower house of parliament backed a recent Senate vote to extend the country's military presence in Iraq beyond June. 'Progressive reduction' Mr Berlusconi has been one of US President George W Bush's staunchest allies in the US-led war in Iraq. But, he said, after speaking to UK Prime Minister Tony Blair he concluded that public opinion in both countries favoured a troop withdrawal. "In September we will begin a progressive reduction of the number of our soldiers in Iraq. "I spoke to Tony Blair about it, and public opinion in our countries is expecting this decision," he told Rai. He said the exact numbers would depend on the Iraqi government's ability to deal with security. The BBC's Tamsin Smith in Rome says it is the first time Mr Berlusconi has suggested a timetable for withdrawal. Relations between the United States and Italy were severely strained after secret service agent Nicola Calipari was shot dead by American troops in Baghdad on 4 March. Mr Berlusconi said the US must accept responsibility for the shooting, which is being investigated by the US military. Our correspondent says the Italian government is also mindful of local elections looming early next month. Also on Tuesday, two other members of the US-led coalition in Iraq - the Netherlands and Ukraine - began a phased withdrawal from the country.

Good news! This sherade has gone on for too long, and hopefully this will increase the pressure on the Americans making another little adventure less likely.

	16-03-2005 03:08									#2
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Though I must say in defense of the Americans I think the shooting on the 4th was just a pretense for a pullout, but still good news.

	16-03-2005 03:13									#3
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"sherade"?

	16-03-2005 03:14									#4
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Let's see what excuses they come up with now.

	16-03-2005 03:16									#5
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weak contries that can't handle getting a few people shot up.

I was against the war, but now we are committed, it would be stupid to pull out now.

	16-03-2005 03:23									#6
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quote: weak contries that can't handle getting a few people shot up.

Somalia.

	16-03-2005 03:29									#7
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IIUC Italy was already planning on pulling out in June. September represents an extension. Italy has done important and valuable work in Iraq. Now that Iraqi forces are taking over the Shiite areas where Italian forces had been stationed, its not unreasonable that they leave.

Grazia, Italia!

	16-03-2005 03:29									#8
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IIUC Italy was already planning on pulling out in June. September represents an extension. Italy has done important and valuable work in Iraq. Now that Iraqi forces are taking over the Shiite areas where Italian forces had been stationed, its not unreasonable that they leave.

Grazia, Italia!

	16-03-2005 03:31									#9
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See... I knew it wouldn't be long before a true believer popped up.

	16-03-2005 03:44									#10
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Eh. If this happened a few months ago I'd be joining Whaleboy and others in pointing out how shabby this "coalition" is. And how little anyone else really supports this war. But considering the election has happened, and Iraq is moving toward self-sufficiency and real independence, it will hopefully soon be time for all foreign troops to pull out.

	16-03-2005 03:45									#11
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quote: it will hopefully soon be time for all foreign troops to pull out.

	16-03-2005 03:47									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident but now we are committed, it would be stupid to pull out now.

Wasn´t that also what you said on your last date?

	16-03-2005 04:23									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: weak contries that can't handle getting a few people shot up. Somalia.

Clinton was weak. And to be fair, Reagan was weak as well.

	16-03-2005 04:24									#14
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The more nations pull out, the easier it becomes to pressure Congress to abandon this lost cause.

	16-03-2005 04:36									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: weak contries that can't handle getting a few people shot up. Somalia.

beat me to it

	16-03-2005 04:37									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar And what nation did they lead? HINT: Its not CANADA HINT2: Its not Mexico HINT3: Its one of the three largest nations in North America....

California?

	16-03-2005 04:45									#17
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quote: And what nation did they lead?

The US.

Somalia and Lebanon gave the appearance of US weakness. Whether or not we actually were weak is a matter for speculation, but I think it's likely that we were. At least morally weak.

In any event, hopefully the foreign forces (including the US forces) can be drawn down over time. I don't think this Italian drawdown is any big deal. It means the coalition is achieving its goals.

	16-03-2005 05:10									#18
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic The more nations pull out, the easier it becomes to pressure Congress to abandon this lost cause.

I was against this war, but we are there now and we have to clean up our mess, I don't wan't Iraq turning into a theocracy.

	16-03-2005 06:16									#19
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Eh. If this happened a few months ago I'd be joining Whaleboy and others in pointing out how shabby this "coalition" is. And how little anyone else really supports this war. But considering the election has happened, and Iraq is moving toward self-sufficiency and real independence, it will hopefully soon be time for all foreign troops to pull out.

To a point I agree, but then I have little faith in Iraq's ability to be self-sufficient, and I question the long-term benefits to be derived from the elections, or democratic pretensions regardless. Good luck to them, but I'm not holding my breath.

	16-03-2005 06:21									#20
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quote: I was against this war, but we are there now and we have to clean up our mess, I don't wan't Iraq turning into a theocracy.

True, but then I see that as primarily the US's responsibility... in the same way that you should be expected to clean up the mess you make at a picnic. I do not think that this should extend to making the state in your own image, unless you want something like a colonial presence. In that sense, I would rather the Iraqi's were in charge of the Americans with regards to reconstruction and political reconciliation etc, a slot-in workforce and security service if you like... as well as performing arbitration duties. Furthermore, I would like to see the UN, and particularly the British take a bigger role in charge because of this country's history of nation building and non-aggressive diplomacy.

	16-03-2005 06:40									#21
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The Shi'a areas are relatively safe and the Iraqis have been trained well enough in those areas. It's the Sunni areas that are the problem. The Italian military did its job by providing security and training up the Iraqis so they can now go home knowing they did a good job.

	16-03-2005 06:42									#22
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But the British (for example) are also doing a good job, one would not say that though if they packed up and left no? It's still 3000 less troops on the ground, is this a good time to be reducing it?

EDIT: this time = this year

	16-03-2005 06:53									#23
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This was planned for quite some time. It doesn't come to any surprise to me. But Whaleboy.. you disgust me. You totally disgust me. You realize that pulling out of Iraq is not a good idea at this point in time? This won't happen for a while, and does in fact represent an extension from the previous set date for an italian pull out. And the country would only begin to pull out some of its forces, not the entire thing.

I find it disgusting you even call this an adventure. Man what the hell are you on? Why the hell do you want Iraq to go down the tubes anyways? So you can prove something?

However yes, Iraq will have its own security forces able to take over from the Italians. And where are the italians anyways? Not in an area where they would take fire.. they are in one of the totally secured provinces. So their role is as insigificant as that of the Spanish troops that were in Iraq some time ago.

	16-03-2005 06:56									#24
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This we know.

	16-03-2005 06:57									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I want Iraq to collapse because death and destruction turns me on

Well unfortunately for you.. you won't ever get that boner because Iraq isn't going to collapse.

	16-03-2005 07:02									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Well unfortunately for you.. you won't ever get that boner because Iraq isn't going to collapse.

\

10-15 years from now Iraq will be a theocracy, like it or lump it.

	16-03-2005 07:04									#27
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever \ 10-15 years from now Iraq will be a theocracy, like it or lump it.

There is one huge reason why this is wrong... the Iraqi Shi'as are mainly moderates..

	16-03-2005 07:14									#28
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quote: But Whaleboy.. you disgust me. You totally disgust me.

You disgust me too Fez, and god I love it! I want you to make me positively SICK!!

quote: I find it disgusting you even call this an adventure. Man what the hell are you on? Why the hell do you want Iraq to go down the tubes anyways? So you can prove something?

Nah I don't want it to, I hope things go well, but I find it interesting that the coalition is dropping out like flies which proves that the whole thing is just one terrible mistake. I'm not saying it's a good thing that they're pulling out, except for their troops, their public finances and their populus. The rules of the game are different for the US, being the leader and the country with most people on the ground.

But of course it's an adventure, kinda like Alice in Wonderland with Neo-cons as the tin man, Haliburton as the lion with no heart and Bush as a lost, prepubescent girl with magic shoes...

quote: 10-15 years from now Iraq will be a theocracy, like it or lump it.

I don't know about a theocracy, but it won't be pretty. Worst case scenario is that it may end up like Somalia, I doubt it and I sincerely hope not. What does end up happening in the long term probably depends on the Israel/Palestine situation more than anything, as well as global oil prices. If Iraq's economy can diversify away from oil as much as possible then it's in a better position but to be honest I can't see that happening as long as the US has its foot in the door.

	16-03-2005 07:19									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy You disgust me too Fez, and god I love it! Disgust me Gian, make me positively SICK!!

What a moron...

quote: Nah I don't want it to, I hope things go well, but I find it interesting that the coalition is dropping out like flies which proves that the whole thing is just one terrible mistake. I'm not saying it's a good thing that they're pulling out, except for their troops, their public finances and their populus. The rules of the game are different for the US, being the leader and the country with most people on the ground.

dropping out like flies? WAKE THE **** UP! These pull outs were scheduled because Iraq has to start taking responsibility for itself. Proves that the whole thing is just one terrilbe mistake? To hell with that rhetoric. It wasn't a terrible mistake... I'm sick of this rhetoric. It isn't time to waste arguing about whether it is right or not. There are people on Iraq depending on a secure future. And if you want to screw them over.. well.. you won't get your way.

Some countries cannot afford staying too long in Iraq, but the US can until everything is stabilized.

quote: I don't know about a theocracy, but it won't be pretty. Worst case scenario is that it may end up like Somalia, I doubt it and I sincerely hope not. What does end up happening in the long term probably depends on the Israel/Palestine situation more than anything, as well as global oil prices. If Iraq's economy can diversify away from oil as much as possible, then it's in a better position but to be honest, I can't see that happening as long as the US has its foot in the door.

It will turn pretty good, and it will probably look pretty good once they get their industries back online. Iraq needs to get its oil economy pumping, and put the money towards developing a manufacturing sector of some sort, maybe. I see this will turn out pretty good and Iraq will be on the road for democracy.

	16-03-2005 07:22									#30
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever 10-15 years from now Iraq will be a theocracy, like it or lump it.

People have said the same thing about all the Arab states at one time or another. So far the voting record is the people want less theocracy and more western style democracy.