17-03-2005 09:27									#31
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I'm on Scalia.

Yes he's a brilliant jurist, that's beyond question. And he can be extremely persuasive at times if you actually read what's he's written.

I love him for Blakely and for his Apprendi/Ring concurrences (rather his vote, not his reasoning ) but loathe his social take on the Constitution. The Constitution is to protect minorities against the tyranny of the majority, not force the minority to convince the majority they are right.

	17-03-2005 09:27									#32
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Ah, because I don't march to the drum of the hysterical left .

Scalia is a brilliant legal scholar. I don't think many legal scholars would argue if you said that Scalia was the brightest mind on the Court. Though he does tend to piss off people. He's the conservative Brennan .

	17-03-2005 09:28									#33
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quote: Scalia is a brilliant legal scholar.

That's entirely compatible with being a terrible judge, which he is.

	17-03-2005 09:29									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ah, because I don't march to the drum of the hysterical left .

because you think a massive racist and bigot is chief justice material

	17-03-2005 09:31									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Scalia is a brilliant legal scholar. That's entirely compatible with being a terrible judge, which he is.

Actually I don't think so. Our judges should be good in legal scholarship. Their viewpoints on the law are irrelevent. I don't like the ideas that Brennan advanced, but I can't argue with his scholarship (even for those that were incredibly wacky). A good judge is one who is a good legal scholar, not one who agrees with me all the time.

	17-03-2005 09:32									#36
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Drake

quote: I'm not sure I really understand what you're getting at, though, so it's a little hard for me to refute what you said. All the talk about Scalia being a supporter of a "living Constitution" confuses me...

He treats the Constitution just like it is a "living document" but he doesn't want to be associated with liberals who do the same because he doesn't support the rights they want, just the rights (or lack thereof) he wants. He's not as guilty simply because the left has really taken an axe to the Constitution, but he still does the same thing they do and condemns them for it.

Imran

quote: Um... Scalia isn't a proponent of a living Constitution... did you even read the article?

I sure did read it...and I've watched Scalia. He's guilty of doing what he condemns. He re-writes the Constitution when it suits him just like the liberals...

quote: You do realize he never said that.. that was Agathon making a joke, rigth?

Aggie put those words in quotes so I assumed Scalia made that comment "off the record".

	17-03-2005 09:33									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten American politics has been pretty virulently partisan at other times in our nations history. It would be interesting to see whether judicial appointments in those previous periods of intense partisanship were as contentious as they are today. If they weren't, then Scalia might have a point about the introduction of the living Constitution concept changing the stakes in judicial appointments.

You wonder how Scalia even sits on the supreme court- after all, where explicitly in the Consitution is the Supreme Court gven the power to do away with a law of Congress?

This is the relevant Section:

quote: Clause 1: The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--between a State and Citizens of another State; (See Note 10)--between Citizens of different States, --between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

It says the Court has jurisdiction- it does NOT say the Court can void laws of Congress it thinks area against the Constitution- after all, Law making is the job of the Legislature.

Yup, don't you hate that whole "living Constitution" bit?

	17-03-2005 09:33									#38
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quote: I sure did read it...and I've watched Scalia. He's guilty of doing what he condemns. He re-writes the Constitution when it suits him just like the liberals...

That doesn't mean he is a proponent of a living Constitution. He could be doing what he condemns, but he doesn't back the idea of a living Constitution.

quote: Aggie put those words in quotes so I assumed Scalia made that comment "off the record".

No, Aggie made the statement up. Do you REALLY think he'd say that even off the record?

	17-03-2005 09:36									#39
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Whatever else you think of Scalia, his failure to recuse himself in Bush v. Gore -- when his sons were working for law firms being used by the Bush campaign -- is one of the great ethical lapses in the history of the court, and should tarnish his reputation forever.

	17-03-2005 09:37									#40
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quote: That doesn't mean he is a proponent of a living Constitution. He could be doing what he condemns, but he doesn't back the idea of a living Constitution.

Agreed. He may be a hypocrite, but that doesn't make him a proponent of a living constitution.

	17-03-2005 09:44									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Whatever else you think of Scalia, his failure to recuse himself in Bush v. Gore -- when his sons were working for law firms being used by the Bush campaign -- is one of the great ethical lapses in the history of the court, and should tarnish his reputation forever.

No it isn't. As long as his sons were not representing the party, Bush, in front of the court, there is no requirement of judicial disqualification. If that were the case, judges would have to disqualify themselves left and right.

	17-03-2005 09:45									#42
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If someone brought a challenge to the Defense of Marriage Act, how would Scalia vote, I wonder? The Constitution seems pretty clear on the obligation of states to honor gay marriages made in one state:

quote: Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

Unless he wants to claim that the power given to Congress would allow it to give the power to some states to ignore the lawful Acts accepted in another.... Living constitution, or NOT?

	17-03-2005 09:45									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No it isn't. As long as his sons were not representing the party, Bush, in front of the court, there is no requirement of judicial disqualification.

Normal people call this corruption... sigh Imran is just another partisan hack

	17-03-2005 09:47									#44
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quote: Normal people call this corruption

Normal people are retarded. What do you do if you are a judge and your son joins one of the biggest law firms in the country? To require the judge to recuse themselves every time that firm brings a suit, no matter if the son has absolutely NO involvment in the suit, is moronic.

	17-03-2005 09:49									#45
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I think we should just be done with it and appoint me to the bench. I will strictly interpret the constitution in such a way that will make liberals and conservatives happy, and alternatively pissed off.

	17-03-2005 09:50									#46
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Imran: oh yeah its just a small world, besides, nothing dirty going on there right

	17-03-2005 09:50									#47
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quote: Aggie put those words in quotes so I assumed Scalia made that comment "off the record".

Love you Dude. That made my day.

	17-03-2005 09:51									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Imran: oh yeah its just a small world, besides, nothing dirty going on there right

This is why we don't put you in charge of anything. You are obviously an idiot .

	17-03-2005 09:53									#49
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quote: Actually I don't think so. Our judges should be good in legal scholarship.

Why? They should be decent people. Otherwise what guidance do they have in difficult cases where the law does not directly specify what to do?

I think my over the top made up quote isn't too far from what Scalia actually believes. He is a religious bigot at heart who is driven by hate. Making a man like that a supreme court justice just shows how low we have come.

	17-03-2005 09:54									#50
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this is so terrible to think I used to value your opinion Imran

	17-03-2005 09:57									#51
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quote: Why? They should be decent people. Otherwise what guidance do they have in difficult cases where the law does not directly specify what to do?

Their guidance is precedent or laws and rulings of the states and the reasoning of the lower courts. I don't care if the people on the court are reasonable people. That doesn't enter into my calculus.

I like Scalia's scholarship of the law. He is a very good justice and perhaps my favorite on the bench, even though I don't agree with everything he says. Though I also like Justice Kennedy, who is nothing like Scalia .

	17-03-2005 09:59									#52
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yeah Scalia has a good clue about where the law comes from:

quote: It's a symbol of the fact that government comes — derives its authority from God.

your hero Imran

	17-03-2005 09:59									#53
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Imran

quote: That doesn't mean he is a proponent of a living Constitution. He could be doing what he condemns, but he doesn't back the idea of a living Constitution.

If he is doing what he condemns, he is guilty too. Actions speak louder than words. They treat the Constitution as a living document, he condemns them. He treats the Constitution as a living document, he's giving a fair reading.

quote: No, Aggie made the statement up. Do you REALLY think he'd say that even off the record?

I thought the comment was over the line even for Scalia, but yes, I think it reflects his views and could have been said among friends/colleagues.

Drake

quote: Agreed. He may be a hypocrite, but that doesn't make him a proponent of a living constitution.

If I say I oppose murder and run around murdering people, obviously I don't oppose murder. This is a common ploy I see among Republicans, complain about media bias and then tune in to Fox News.

	17-03-2005 10:02									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Actually I don't think so. Our judges should be good in legal scholarship. Why? They should be decent people. Otherwise what guidance do they have in difficult cases where the law does not directly specify what to do? I think my over the top made up quote isn't too far from what Scalia actually believes. He is a religious bigot at heart who is driven by hate. Making a man like that a supreme court justice just shows how low we have come.

A bigot driven by hate? Oh gimmie a break.

I do like what he has to say about the Constitution being a "living document". Of course it is and should be, but as he notes, there is a process for that, and it doesn't involve just reinterpreting it to meet any standard. The majority decision in roper v. simmons (the juvenile deathpenalty case) was quite bad, and quite a sign of "activist judging".

Not to say that I like Scalia much, and Berz is probably right that he looks for and ignores things in the Constitution plenty on his own, from his own side of things. But his speech (or at least the parts quoted here), taken alone, is spot on.

	17-03-2005 10:06									#55
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quote: Not to say that I like Scalia much, and Berz is probably right that he looks for and ignores things in the Constitution plenty on his own, from his own side of things. But his speech (or at least the parts quoted here), taken alone, is spot on.

That's pretty much how I feel, as well.

	17-03-2005 10:07									#56
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quote: Scalia has a good clue about where the law comes from

I know you have an irrational hatred about religion, but what is so wrong about that statement? I'd argue that most Americans believe that statement even though both of us do not.

	17-03-2005 10:09									#57
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quote: Love you Dude. That made my day.

Bastard...or...are you a mindreader in touch with Scalia's inner thoughts...? Hmm... I need more pot, I've lost my sense of humor.

	17-03-2005 10:10									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Scalia has a good clue about where the law comes from I know you have an irrational hatred about religion, but what is so wrong about that statement? I'd argue that most Americans believe that statement even though both of us do not.

No doubt Osama bin Laden believes in it too.

Gee, silly me... here I thought American government derived it's power from the people. That's supposedly what democratic Republics do. It's good to know your pick for the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States believes we are a theocracy.

	17-03-2005 10:33									#59
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So Scalia is a hypocrite. Again, why does anyone care what this guy thinks?

	17-03-2005 10:35									#60
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Strict interpretation

Living Document