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DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
Red face  Old Post 19-03-2005 10:21
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That's right. China is not a member of Kyoto and has no intention of closing down any coal plants or reducing car and other CO2 emissions. But as some here have pointed out, China is still looking out for environmental concerns by building more hydroelectric plants.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/19/i...5ebWpevdcKJDy9g

quote:

In Life on the Mekong, China's Dams Dominate
By JANE PERLEZ

CHIANG KHONG, Thailand - For countless generations, fishermen along the Mekong River have passed their lore and way of life from father to son: the rhythms of the water, the habits of the many kinds of fish, the best nets and traps to use to survive and prosper.

But Sri Sumwantha, 70, one of the old men of Asia's majestic river, has left his delicate pirogue tied up at the riverbank for longer stretches than usual. Through green bamboo stands, he has watched the caramel-colored current slow and surge unpredictably and his catch diminish. Now, he worries how much longer his family can live off the river.

The reason is China. China's ravenous appetite for hydroelectric power at home and its thrust southward into Southeast Asia in search of trade is changing the very character of the Mekong. This is true not only in China itself, but also for the five nations and 60 million rural people downstream for whom the great river serves as their life's blood.

Several hundred miles upstream from Sri Sumwantha's simple home, China has completed two dams. It is pushing ahead with three more and has three others on the drawing board. Just about 70 miles away from here, China has blasted reefs and rocks at the border of Laos and Myanmar to clear the way for its trading vessels to reach new markets deep into Laos.

The effects of the river projects that serve China's colossal upstream ambitions have been visible for several years, but are growing more worrying, say conservationists and those who live on the river.

The fish species found in this stretch of the Mekong in northern Thailand dwindled from 100 to only 88 last year, said Sayan Khamnueng, a researcher with the Southeast Asia River Network, an environmental group.

Water levels and temperatures have fluctuated widely, threatening the river environment and disrupting the livelihoods of the fishermen and others who depend on the $2 billion annual catch of migratory fish.

For the fishermen, their revered river, once nearly untouched and steady in its moods, has turned into a fickle sea. "In the past the river was up and down like nature - every three or four days up and down," said Tan Inkew, 72, a fisherman who lives in Meung Kan village. "Now the river is like the sea - up and down, up and down very quickly."

Protests by Mr. Tan and other fishermen helped persuade the Thai government to stop China from blasting the rapids in Thai waters near his home, between the port of Chiang Saen and Chiang Khong.

"We protested outside the Chinese Embassy in Bangkok," Mr. Tan recalled. "We told them to stop blasting - and if they don't stop, we'll fight them."

Still, he worries about the impact of China's dams as well. He recalled how his son was recently out on the water for nine hours but "did not catch one thing."

While Mr. Tan and his neighbors may have scored a small victory, clearly China cannot be kept at bay for long. The Mekong has been protected through the ages by a lack of development, and more recently by wars in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, as it winds its way on a brawling 2,870-mile journey from the Tibetan plateau to its delta in Vietnam.

But today the countries downstream from China - Myanmar, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam - have settled into an era of relative peace and have shed their old fears of China, indeed, are currying favor. Booming Thailand is seeking more trade with China. Impoverished Laos and Cambodia want China's aid to kick-start their economies. Myanmar shares China's passion for hydropower to supply future growth.

"China seems to be doing this with impunity," said Aviva Imhof, director of Southeast Asia programs at International Rivers Network, a nongovernmental group in Berkeley, Calif. "The Mekong is slowly being strangled to death. Why aren't the downstream governments challenging China's activities?"

The concern extends beyond environmental groups and fishermen.

Ted Osius, until recently the State Department's regional environmental affairs officer and once a senior White House adviser to Vice President Al Gore, suggests that an unchecked China could turn the Mekong into an ecological disaster, akin to the Yellow River and the Yangtze River.

"China has a poor record on river protection," Mr. Osius said in a speech in Bangkok, noting that 80 percent of the Yangtze's historic flood plain has already been cut off by a dike and levee system.

Today China's economic and political power along the Mekong is unrivaled. More than ever, it is being strengthened and extended through growing trade and diplomatic ties and its use of new multilateral tools, like the Asian Development Bank.

The bank, a major lender for poverty alleviation, was until now dominated by Japan. China contributed to its capital fund for the first time in 2004 - gaining more power over how the bank's loans are distributed. The impact was immediate.

The bank added a new vice president, Jin Liqun, a former deputy finance minister in Beijing. Most important, the bank's grand plan for roads, bridges and a telecommunications network to knit southern China together with the five other Mekong River countries - a plan 10 years in abeyance - got a quick boost.

Long-stalled work was suddenly under way on a 152-mile road from Yunnan Province across untamed territory to Houey Xai, a Laotian river town just a few hundred yards across the Mekong from Sri Sumwantha's village. Although relatively short, the road provides the vital link to China.

A bridge is also in the works to replace the little ferryboats now used to cross the river. By the end of the decade, China could be connected by roads that cross the Mekong, head down to Bangkok and then run on to Malaysia and finally Singapore.

"China's donation gives them a seat at the donor's table," said Bruce Murray, the bank's representative in Beijing. "When they give, donors always have a certain agenda."

China's new clout can be felt on other important projects as well.

One of the most controversial is a $1.3 billion dam proposed for the Theun River, a major Mekong tributary in Laos, a plan that has been fought over for more than a decade.

The World Bank is expected to approve loan guarantees for the dam in March. American diplomats say they have quietly supported the World Bank's role - its first dam project in a decade - for fear that otherwise China will step in.

"The Laotians have told the World Bank that if the bank does not guarantee the dam and make it go ahead, they will turn to the Chinese," an American official said. The United States is reluctant to have China build and manage one of Southeast Asia's biggest dams, he said.

China, diplomats and conservationists say, would be much less fussy about the dam's impact than the consortium seeking World Bank support, led by Electricity Generating Authority Thailand (EGAT) and France's state-owned Electricité de France.

Here in Chiang Khong, where the fishermen's bamboo houses are nestled along the banks, the changes to the river that China has already made are quickly causing a way of life to recede, along with the bounty of the Mekong's waters.

Mr. Sayan, of the Southeast Asian River Network, said fishermen had stopped selling their fish at the main market in Chiang Rai. "They don't have enough," he said.

In extreme cases, the fishermen have given up and become laborers, unloading the trading vessels from China that dock at Chiang Saen, laden with fruits and vegetables, electronics and cheap garments. "As laborers they become impoverished and are miserable," said Chainarong Srettachau, the director of the river network.

Some fishermen have begun supplementing their incomes with crops. But crops are being hurt, too. China's upstream dams are also holding back as much as 50 percent of the fertile silt that is essential to the soil and that normally flows down river, according to conservationists.

Erosion is also worsening. At Pak Ing, a small village near Chiang Khong, fishermen pointed to a 12-foot-high wall of exposed soil, a muddy mini-cliff where the water, flowing faster because of blasting of the rapids, has cut into once gently sloping riverbanks. The next step will be to erect concrete banks to hold back the land.

Farther downstream, the effects may be even more severe. In Cambodia, an intricate ecology and age-old economy depend on the ebb and flow of the great lake fed by the Mekong, Tonle Sap, which can swell fourfold during the rainy season. The rhythm of life is built around the seasonal tides and the bounty that the waters provide.

The fish catch dropped by almost 50 percent last year, according to the Mekong River Commission. In many areas, the low catches were caused by the sudden fluctuations that occurred when dams in China released water to allow easier passage for trading vessels, said Milton Osborne, an Australian historian and an expert on the Mekong.

The water from the dams is also much colder than the water downstream, affecting the fish, which are extremely sensitive to changes in temperature, Mr. Osborne wrote last year in a paper titled "River at Risk" for the Lowy Institute, a public policy group in Sydney.

Large species in particular had fallen off, he said. The outlook for the river and its vast ecosystem was not promising, he added.

"Because of the enormous imbalance of power between China and the downstream countries," he said, "it is highly unlikely that there will be a halt to China's projected dam building program on the Mekong."

But Mr. Chainarong of the river network was less pessimistic.

"Two or three years ago, people said we would never be able to stop China blasting the Mekong inside Thailand," he said. "But we did."

"One good thing," he noted, "is that China doesn't want to have conflict downstream. That's the challenge. The situation is up to China: does it want to go friendly or hostile?"

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 10:29
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Water rights will probably become a big point of contention between Southeast Asian states and China. Too bad the SEA states are too small to really do anything more than complain...

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 10:41 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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Yeah in the process they end up displacing tens of thousands of people... commies...

Combat Ingrid is offline Combat Ingrid
Chieftain
Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 10:43
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There's more good stuff:
http://nation.ittefaq.com/artman/exec/view.cgi/8/3438

quote:

China is planning for a huge hydropower dam over river Brahmaputra, one of the longest international rivers of the world serving three countries of China, India and Bangladesh. The river originated in Tibet and then moved eastward for nearly 1500 km before taking a loop for nearly 500km westward to enter Indian state of Assam and then Bangladesh to join with the Ganges, another mighty river of the world, at Goalundu to discharge the biggest quantity of water into Bay of Bengal.

According to official Chinese newsagency, Xinhua from Lhasa, engineers will begin their survey in October next to find out a possible site for the dam that will produce one-sixth of total demand of electricity of China. The China water conservancy and hydropower planning and designing institute, the organiser of the feasibility study, has sent an expert team to the area for preliminary work between late June and early July. The Chinese section of the river, 2,000 kilometre long, boasts of a water energy reserve of about 100 million kilowatt, or one-sixth of the country's total, ranking second behind the Yangtze river, China's longest. The location for the possible hydropower plant is the u-shaped turn of the river in the south-eastern part of Tibet. The river drops by 2,755 metres in the 500 kilometre-long 'u' section, leading to a water energy reserve of about 68 million kilowatt, or one 10th of china's national total. "Yarlung Zangbo" is the Tibetan name for the Chinese section of the river Brahmaputra, which runs through India, and flows into the Indian ocean in Bangladesh, where it is called Jamuna.

Experts in Bangladesh said the construction of the dam, set to be one of the biggest in the world, will divert water for irrigation purposes in China, India has already built one dam and plans to built another dam some 40 miles from Bangladesh border. Thus Bangladesh will be denied water of both the Ganges and the Brahmaputra during summer. With construction of the Farakka, most of the Ganges water was diverted by India and during summer Bangladesh suffers from severe shortage of water. Some 20 districts of Bangladesh which totally depended on the Ganges, now face the process of desertification for shortage of water. The northern districts of Bangladesh used to get some support from the waters of the Brahmaputra which also fed important rivers in the eastern Bangladesh, including Buriganga, Lakhya , which serve capital, Dhaka. Further withdrawal of water from the Brahmaputra will serverely affect the flow of Buriganga and other rivers limiting the movement of water transport linking the capital.

Officials in Bangladesh are yet to grasp with the implication of the new development. We are studying the news, said an official.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 10:43
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I'd rather be displaced and have electricity than vice-versa.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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May 1999
time: 13:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 10:56
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AFAIK, building a series of smaller dams are better for controlling floods and generating electricity. That also has less of an impact on the environment.

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 10:58
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:) Smiley is offline :) Smiley
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USCA, Berkeley
Feb 2001
time: 21:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 12:24 Visit :) Smiley's homepage!
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Dams are good, but they're a stopgap and not a fix-all solution. The USA once generated a good chunk of its juice from dams, many built in the 1930s. However, there's a limit to the amount of hydropower that can be harnessed, but not to electricity consumption.

GePap is offline GePap
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Nov 2001
time: 23:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 12:37
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Huge damns are easy to make for those with plenty of man hours but low tech, but create far too many problems long term, like screwing up with sediments and such.

China would be better served by lots more nuclear power (which they intend to use) and natural gas to move away form its heavy coal reliance. That said, China does have huge hydroelectric potential, so while these damns will be trouble, its easy to see why they are being built.

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 12:45
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They are mostly trouble for their neighbors. China's poor water and land management has led to increasing desertification within the country. By building dams, they get electricity as well as rob smaller countries of their water supply and passing a Chinese problem on to them.

Asmodean is offline Asmodean
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Aarhus, Denmark
Aug 1999
time: 06:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 14:43 Visit Asmodean's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
AFAIK, building a series of smaller dams are better for controlling floods and generating electricity. That also has less of an impact on the environment.


So basically you don't care what this is doing to the economies of the countries downstream from China?

My wife is Thai, and I have seen firsthand the living standard of those fishermen on the Mekong. If the fish go, they have no option but to go to Bangkok and live in the slum.

For all their People's Repuclic rhetoric, China are not a hair better for the South-East Asian countries then France or the US was in the 20th century.

Asmodean

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 14:48
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Don't forget Japanese schoolgirls, they're popular here as well.

TCO is offline TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 15:09
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Typical stupid World Bank government monstrosity.

Combat Ingrid is offline Combat Ingrid
Chieftain
Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by DaShi
They are mostly trouble for their neighbors. China's poor water and land management has led to increasing desertification within the country.


Nah, there's no such problem. China's doing just fine

Attachment: chinane20031018forests.jpg
This has been downloaded 106 time(s).

Asmodean is offline Asmodean
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Aarhus, Denmark
Aug 1999
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  Old Post 19-03-2005 15:22 Visit Asmodean's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by TCO
Typical stupid World Bank government monstrosity.


TCO sighting

Asmodean

MORON is offline MORON
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Vancouver, Canada
Jun 2001
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  Old Post 19-03-2005 17:11
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quote:
Combat Ingrid has attached this image:

OMG

mindseye is offline mindseye
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A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:36
  Old Post 19-03-2005 20:10
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I believe most of the current top Chinese leqadership are engineers - hydraulic engineers predominate, IIR.

That would explain a lot. If you only have one tool, and it's a mighty hammer ...

DaShi is offline DaShi
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The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 08:47
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quote:
Originally posted by MORON

OMG


Don't worry, that was in 2003. They're probably all gone now.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 20-03-2005 09:30
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@ those pictures

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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Apr 2000
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 09:31 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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China is a big nation of mismanagement and they overstate their economic growth almost always.

GePap is offline GePap
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Combat Ingrid


Nah, there's no such problem. China's doing just fine


Why would anyone expect there to be forests left in an area that has been under cultivation and dense human population for more than two millenia?

Just look at the ME. GUess what, places like Iraq didn't begin as deserts...

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-03-2005 11:16
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Well I'm somewhat shocked that Japan of all places has more forests than China.

DaShi is offline DaShi
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The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 11:17
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Nor did they begin as forests.

GePap is offline GePap
King
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 11:20
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The ME had forest- they were not importing wood from far away. They are all gone now, of course.

It should not be a newsflash to anyone- cutting forests is what people do when they need wood, and 2000 years of lumber needs are bound to be substantial.

Odin is offline Odin
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Sep 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 20-03-2005 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap

Just look at the ME. GUess what, places like Iraq didn't begin as deserts...


What was there before? Savanna?

GePap is offline GePap
King
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 11:30
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Well I'm somewhat shocked that Japan of all places has more forests than China.


How would that be...

Last time I notices, that shot includes only a section of China- I don't see the Yagtze river valley, I don't see Manchuria,Inner Mongolia nor the Himalayan foothills in that shot, all I see in an area that probably holds, what? 200 plus million people?

Here is a link to a NGO about some of China's forests and what has occured to them.

http://www.worldwildlife.org/wildwo...a0430_full.html

GePap is offline GePap
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 11:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin


What was there before? Savanna?


Parts of it- some of the higher areas, like Lebanon, were forested- some small part of that remains. BUt ehre has been a lot of deserfitication due to increases in salt in the soil.

Long term human agriculture is rarely a boon for the environment.

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 11:33
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It still doesn't address the rapid desertification over the past few decades in China.

GePap is offline GePap
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 11:40
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quote:
Originally posted by DaShi
It still doesn't address the rapid desertification over the past few decades in China.


Maybe the doubling of the population between 1950 and today does.

China is a developing coutry- in NO developing country do you find wonderful care of the environment- hell, just look at the Brazilian rain forest, or Africa. The examples are endless.

DaShi is offline DaShi
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The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 11:44
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap


How would that be...

Last time I notices, that shot includes only a section of China- I don't see the Yagtze river valley, I don't see Manchuria,Inner Mongolia nor the Himalayan foothills in that shot, all I see in an area that probably holds, what? 200 plus million people?


I believe that it what he is comparing it too. How many people does Japan hold?

quote:

Here is a link to a NGO about some of China's forests and what has occured to them.

http://www.worldwildlife.org/wildwo...a0430_full.html


Yes, this helps identify the problem but doesn't go into detail. Much like. . .

 
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