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The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
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Aug 1999
time: 00:35
  Old Post 20-03-2005 00:59
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The First Amendment and more signs the future is bleak Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote:
Freedom of speech and the idea of a free press are so intricately woven into America's DNA that few of us give much thought to the origins of our freedoms or ponder an alternative life without them.
With gratitude, we can admit that we don't worry much about jackboots kicking in our doors at night because we've spoken ill of El Jefe. Indeed, criticizing government is sport within our borders.

Every day, pundits, cartoonists, radio broadcasters, bloggers and others take potshots at public officials with impunity, if not always with logic or sound arguments. But so goes freedom, American-style. Even the ignorant are invited to democracy's brawl.

And yet, we might begin to worry when the nation's collective memory fades such that the freedoms we take for granted are no longer understood by a rising generation of Americans. Recent studies, surveys and tests indicate that a growing number of students, both high school and college, are poorly informed on matters of heritage, especially concerning the Founding Fathers — though a pop quiz on Marilyn Monroe would leave almost no child behind.

In one high school textbook, Monroe gets 213 lines of text compared with fewer than 50 dedicated to George Washington, according to James Rees, executive director of Mount Vernon, Washington's home in Virginia. (Footnote for high school students: George Washington was the first president of the United States.)

In a recent study, the largest ever of its kind, the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation attempted to measure high school students' understanding of the First Amendment and the free press. Among the more depressing results:

• More than a third (35%) said the First Amendment goes "too far" in the rights it guarantees.

• Close to a third (32%) think the press has too much freedom.

• Only half of students surveyed (51%) said newspapers should be allowed to publish stories without prior government approval.


Loosely extrapolating, we might conclude that close to half of America's teens would be just as happy living in North Korea, Cuba, Iran or some other totalitarian state. No, they didn't say so outright and probably would be aghast at the suggestion. "Dude, are you crazy? Give up MTV?"

Those would be the smarter ones who somehow have connected the dots between our constitutional protection of free speech and their right to lizard-gaze at MTV. Unfortunately, the rest, the ones who flunked connect-the-dots but who, thanks to our caring-if-ineffective public education system, nevertheless will be spared an encounter with low self-esteem.

And to think: Many of these nascent citizens will soon be casting ballots, not to mention making your elder-care plans. Such bodes well neither for us here nor for others elsewhere as we seek to export freedom and democracy abroad.

In seeking explanations for the survey's findings, we can point to a number of factors, including the educational shift in emphasis from subjects such as history and science to math and language arts, the latter two being necessary to meet the growing demand for better standardized test scores.

There's a downside to higher scores, as other statistics provided by Rees confirm: A recent test of high school seniors found only one in 10 proficient in American history. When seniors at the nation's top 55 universities were asked to name America's victorious general at the Battle of Yorktown, only 34% named Washington.

While no one seriously expects high school kids to sit around discussing their fortuitous birth in the cradle of freedom or debating the nuances of the First Amendment, we might at least hope to raise children who understand that free speech is about empowering people, not government.

The lesson we apparently have failed to teach is that without access to information and a free press, there are no other freedoms, at least not for long. When the People's Voice is stifled, what follows isn't silence, but a different sound.

Doubtless those surveyed by the Knight Foundation associate this other sound with scary movies and Halloween pranks. I associate it with five memorable words from Whittaker Chambers' book, Witness, in which he describes his departure from communism. He is recalling a story in which the daughter of a fellow communist explains to him why her father, too, changed his mind:

"One night he heard screams."

Those five chilling words may be the best response to any who think government should have more control over information. For the alternative to a free press inevitably is totalitarianism, after which come screams in the night.

History has taught previous generations that the human longing for freedom can be suppressed only by force. The next generation needs to learn that lesson well, lest they be condemned to learn it the hard way.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinio...ss-parker_x.htm

This is one of the more disturbing trends in the US today. Unfortunately, the trend that gets talked about the most is "brainwashing" children to accept homosexuality.

Here's the study:

http://www.knightfdn.org/default.as...firstamend.html

Other interesting things:

-Nearly three-fourths of high school students either do not know how they feel about the First Amendment or admit they take it for granted.
-Seventy-five percent erroneously think flag burning is illegal.
-Half believe the government can censor the Internet.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 20-03-2005 01:07
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Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 20-03-2005 01:07
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This wasn't that interesting months ago, when it was news...

Sava is offline Sava
King
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 01:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
This wasn't that interesting months ago, when it was news...

Dis is offline Dis
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Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:35
  Old Post 20-03-2005 01:15 Visit Dis's homepage!
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old news.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:35
  Old Post 20-03-2005 01:16 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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I've seen this before posted several times. The last time I trusted polls was before November 2nd, 2004. So next.

Patroklos is offline Patroklos
Warlord
Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:35
  Old Post 20-03-2005 01:20
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I love the "loosely extrapolating" part :roleyes:

I too agree that the media is out of control. Not because I don't want them to be able speak their minds, but rather because they are inherently considered experts in what they speak about it, and I think they should be held to a more scholarly level of proof. Imagine if I were to right my next term paper with referances to "confidencial source" and "secret article." Basically the media can claim anything they want regardless of source, and unlike our rantings here on apolyton these have consequences in the real world.

And this is for both right and left. And I understand that this is probobly an impossible goal.

Sava is offline Sava
King
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 01:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
I love the "loosely extrapolating" part :roleyes:

I too agree that the media is out of control. Not because I don't want them to be able speak their minds, but rather because they are inherently considered experts in what they speak about it, and I think they should be held to a more scholarly level of proof. Imagine if I were to right my next term paper with referances to "confidencial source" and "secret article." Basically the media can claim anything they want regardless of source, and unlike our rantings here on apolyton these have consequences in the real world.

And this is for both right and left. And I understand that this is probobly an impossible goal.
Well, this is the end result of having a news media owned by private interests.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 20-03-2005 01:26
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quote:
Well, this is the end result of having a news media owned by private interests.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:35
  Old Post 20-03-2005 01:30
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What might happen when the newer generations of americans grow up would worry me, but the USA will probably cease to a world player by then anyways, so it's their own problem.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 01:37
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That is seriously worrying...with concensus in the youth, the future is not looking bleak as further erosion of rights will continue...

Dis is offline Dis
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Feb 2000
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 01:49 Visit Dis's homepage!
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The world moves in cycles.

People are not getting worse. People are the same as they've always been.

When things get bad enough, the people will revolt, the goverment will collapse, and we start all again.

The U.S. can't last forever.

Pyrodrew is offline Pyrodrew
Prince

Dec 2000
time: 21:35
  Old Post 20-03-2005 02:31
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Put an end to popups!

1st - There was a study earlier showing teens don't think through the consequences as well as adults and take bigger risks. There's a reason we have a voting age at 18.
2nd - Were you the that kid in school who took lots of time to seriously answer a 60+question survey that had NO impact on your grade, while all the other students finished early so they could chat, do homework, or leave early for lunch/home, etc. etc.?
3rd - This study doesn't prove things will get worse since no comparative study was done on other teen generations or even teens in other countries with similiar questions. Recall the "earth goes around the sun" question for adults.

That aside, I'm not against teaching the 1st Amendment more in schools.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 02:33 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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I remember when I was in high school, there were fellow students arguing that it was right that we shouldn't have privacy rights because if we didn't have anything to hide, it wouldn't be a problem.

Aramis is offline Aramis
Prince
Not where I was tomorrow, nor will be yesterday.
Dec 2002
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 02:41
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Since the White House has admitted that it paid columnists to write articles and produced news-like stories that it distributed to tv news stations, would this be an example of the media "out of control" or the media being manipulated into that nice, cushy control thing?
Just curious.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 02:52
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I remember when I was in high school, there were fellow students arguing that it was right that we shouldn't have privacy rights because if we didn't have anything to hide, it wouldn't be a problem.


People have always argued that.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 02:54 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
People have always argued that.


Many people have always been inclined towards authoritarianism. I imagine if this poll were taken at large, it would find similar results.

Geronimo is offline Geronimo
King
st cloud USA
Jan 1970
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Question  Old Post 20-03-2005 05:00
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I wonder how people who think the government should be able to control our speech imagine that a challenger could ever defeat an incumbant who was effectively silencing his rival?


without freedom of the press there is no democracy of any kind. full stop.


Why is it that stupidity always seems so much more widespread in polls than among people we meet and talk to?

DanS is offline DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
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quote:
Since the White House has admitted that it paid columnists to write articles and produced news-like stories that it distributed to tv news stations, would this be an example of the media "out of control" or the media being manipulated into that nice, cushy control thing?
Just curious.


Neither. It means that the news organizations aren't spending any money on news gathering. It happens with the drug industry too. They prepackage footage for the news programs. The news programs use it because it's free and of reasonable visual quality.

As for the survey, I don't believe the results when this comes up...

quote:
Only half of students surveyed (51%) said newspapers should be allowed to publish stories without prior government approval.

Space05us is offline Space05us
King

Nov 2001
time: 17:35
  Old Post 20-03-2005 05:50
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quote:
-Seventy-five percent erroneously think flag burning is illegal.


it should be

As for the study its poop, I remember years ago thinking how much better things would be if it were like the world in '1984'.

what a dumbass I was/am.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 05:52
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Looking over this thread...I just don't know about some people.

Apathy is the mother of Despair.

To not know where your rights come from and why they are important is the first step to losing them.

Sad...sad...sad.

Admiral is offline Admiral
Warlord
of the peace and coexistance movement
Feb 2001
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 06:09
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While I do not have any access to facts, empirical evidence suggests that these studies are not entirely accurate. I went to highschool in central virginia, and there did not seem to be a large minority of people who were unsupportive of the first ammendment.

Also, lately, people with authoritarian tendencies tend to vote Republican. Given that, among 18-24 year olds, Kerry won by 74%, there is some hope to the youth of today. However, I suppose that you could argue that the people who don't care about the first ammendment probably wouldn't vote, so my argument may be spurious. But it doesn't feel right.

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 06:13
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS

As for the survey, I don't believe the results when this comes up...



Having been in highschool more recently than you, I can attest that its not out of the question. I remember a debate we had in my Honors Civics & Government class about Censorship, and how a larger group than I was comfortable with (maybe 40% of the class) thought that newpapers should have governmental scrutiny.

Space05us is offline Space05us
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 06:29
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Morale to the story, dont lower the voting age.

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 06:32
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Agreed

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Space05us
quote:
-Seventy-five percent erroneously think flag burning is illegal.


it should be
nope... I would never burn the American flag... I think it's a disgraceful display of ignorance.

But the second it became illegal, I would burn it. Because that's when it becomes a worthless piece of ****.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 07:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Geronimo
Why is it that stupidity always seems so much more widespread in polls than among people we meet and talk to?


Smart people tend to stay away from idiots.

Space05us is offline Space05us
King

Nov 2001
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 20:32
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quote:
Smart people tend to stay away from idiots.


Apolyton being the prime example of how Kuci is wrong.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 20-03-2005 20:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
nope... I would never burn the American flag... I think it's a disgraceful display of ignorance.

But the second it became illegal, I would burn it. Because that's when it becomes a worthless piece of ****.


chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 20-03-2005 21:57 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Geronimo
Why is it that stupidity always seems so much more widespread in polls than among people we meet and talk to?


Birds of a feather flock together.

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