21-03-2005 03:45									#31
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You just did.

Thanks.

	21-03-2005 03:46									#32
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quote: Yes, we don't have a frickin' clue what happened to $9 billion of their money.

Again, that's incorrect. It's just not documented to the degree that a public accountant would require, for instance. If you wanted to go through the expense of interviewing those who who spent the money in order to reconstruct what was spent, when it was spent, how it was spent, and why it was spent, then you could do so.

	21-03-2005 03:47									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker You just did. Thanks.

Always happy to serve.

	21-03-2005 03:49									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Again, that's incorrect. It's just not documented to the degree that a public accountant would require, for instance. If you wanted to go through the expense of interviewing those who who spent the money in order to reconstruct what was spent, when it was spent, how it was spent, and why it was spent, then you could do so.

Why would it not be?


I mean, that's horrible, especially with the amount of money involved.

	21-03-2005 03:52									#35
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quote: Again, that's incorrect. It's just not documented to the degree that a public accountant would require, for instance. If you wanted to go through the expense of interviewing those who who spent the money in order to reconstruct what was spent, when it was spent, how it was spent, and why it was spent, then you could do so.

And find out that a lot of it is corporate welfare.

Like that Haliburton contract where they overcharged us by over $108 million.

	21-03-2005 03:58									#36
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quote: Why would it not be?

Some reasons.

(1) The accountants were in Washington while the money was being spent in Iraq. It was difficult to coordinate the documentation.

(2) The military spends money on an ad hoc basis sometimes because of the nature of its work. Iraq was a war zone and in such instances the military doesn't necessarily have to collect receipts in many situations.

(3) Business convention in Iraq does not work in the same manner as that required by public accountants in the US, for instance. The level of required documentation is much higher in the US.

	21-03-2005 04:00									#37
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Why would the military have direct control over Iraqi oil revenues, and be able to spend it on an ad hoc basis?

	21-03-2005 04:03									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Some reasons. (1) The accountants were in Washington while the money was being spent in Iraq. It was difficult to coordinate the documentation. (2) The military spends money on an ad hoc basis sometimes because of the nature of its work. Iraq was a war zone and in such instances the military doesn't necessarily have to collect receipts in many situations. (3) Business convention in Iraq does not work in the same manner as that required by public accountants in the US, for instance.

These were the only reasons I could think of also but I really don't see how this justifies the lack of a paper trail. It shows to me a total lack of accountability, on top of the total lack of planning that is already legendary.

Even if they aren't collecting receipts, they should at least be keeping track of where and how the money was spent. Having the guys back in Washington being able to do the paperpushing should have relieved the guys in the field of the paperwork burden.

I mean keeping a log and sending emails shouldn't be that hard.

Or maybe they should have outsourced to India and done the job right.

	21-03-2005 04:03									#39
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As I recall, the CPA was under the military, because the military was the only instrument that had people in the entire country and could make things happen (civil affairs, infrastructure people, etc.).

	21-03-2005 04:06									#40
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I watched the newsnight program. I think the BBC is a fine organisation most of the time, and this was another feather in the cap of good broadcasting. Atleast some people are asking the hard and important questions.

I think if corporate buisness turns its back on you because it feels your misguided beliefs get in the way of profit, then your cause is a step closer to being dead

Edit: I know the military have the facilities to shift lots of oil, maybe not at the capacity of the oil companies, but they would have been able to shift alot if told to. I just wonder if they have been? It would be possible to make a fair ammount 'vanish', it is a warzone after all.

Last edited by child of Thor on 21-03-2005 at 04:13

	21-03-2005 04:08									#41
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quote: I mean keeping a log and sending emails shouldn't be that hard.

Assuming, of course, that everybody had e-mail at all times. Despite all the modernization, I doubt the CPA had reliable e-mail, since they didn't even have cell phones that worked.

	21-03-2005 04:09									#42
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That's why you have a log so you can send it in batches when you're out in the field.

	21-03-2005 04:11									#43
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quote: As I recall, the CPA was under the military, because the military was the only instrument that had people in the entire country and could make things happen (civil affairs, infrastructure people, etc.).

You recall incorrectly. The military certainly shouldn't have had control over Iraqi oil revenues.

	21-03-2005 04:14									#44
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Documentation to our standards requires a level of detail that a simple log would not provide. Further, the documentation may exist to some degree, but hasn't been organized into a fashion (consolidation into a single file, etc.) that would be acceptable to meet the accounting standards of a public accountant, for instance.

In any event, Soros' transparency group should ask these people for interviews. I bet they would be happy to cooperate in reconstructing these transactions, unless they're just trying to slag these peoples' efforts.

	21-03-2005 04:24									#45
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That's why the guys back in Washington can work out the details that the log doesn't provide.

	21-03-2005 04:28									#46
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So finaly we can see that the war in Iraq was all about the oil, as many sensible people thought at the time.

Freedom? Democracy? nice smoke screens to get at the real issue.

Its funny but in time many people will see just how much wool has been pulled over their eye's since Bush+neocons came into power.

	21-03-2005 04:33									#47
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I never thought it would have ever been about oil, but I have been proven wrong.

I used to varaciously defend that it wasn't about the oil. I could have never imagined people could be so cruel for the gains of a few.

Depressing.


On a pragmatic level, the plan hasn't done one damn thing that it was supposed to.

Last edited by Ted Striker on 21-03-2005 at 04:39

	21-03-2005 04:39									#48
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dont worry about it too much - it is a neo-con speciality.

I mean these guys have all been to the very best universities so they could come up with better ways of fooling the majority of decent americans. They have been succesfull initially.

	21-03-2005 04:54									#49
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This is what I think Iraq is all about.

1. Oil
2. Gives the US army/navy/marines something to do. Provides experience for soldiers, weapons testing etc
3. It attracts fanatics, terrorists and anti usa types to the area where they can be engaged and destroyed.
4. It gives the US a strategic postion in the area. It can threaten neighbouring countries like syria into behaving the way it wants. More diplomacy and espionage options.
5. Rebuilding Iraq. American companies benefit from this. J
6. Provides Jobs in America, whether its the military or arms manufacturing. Providing supplies for the army. Rebuilding Iraq. etc
7. Removing Saddam so the US can insert a more US friendly goverment.
8. Control of the area so they can look around and ease the american mind about weapons of mass destruction. I know they didn't find any but they got the chance to look around.

Its imperalism. The USA is the worlds big boy on the world stage right now and I don't criticize them one bit for Iraq.

Rather them than a bunch of commies or fascists.

	21-03-2005 04:58									#50
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Imperialism and Communism(stalin style)/Fascisim can be pretty warm bedfellows, and thats my worry about the whole thing. Once you shift your idiology in that direction, certain unsavory things can raise their heads.

So i think that there are other more healthy options to take.

	21-03-2005 05:03									#51
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Imperialism and Communism(stalin style)/Fascisim can be pretty warm bedfellows, and thats my worry about the whole thing. Once you shift your idiology in that direction, certain unsavory things can raise their heads. So i think that there are other more healthy options to take.

	21-03-2005 05:13									#52
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Imperialism and Communism(stalin style)/Fascisim can be pretty warm bedfellows, and thats my worry about the whole thing. Once you shift your idiology in that direction, certain unsavory things can raise their heads. So i think that there are other more healthy options to take.

They all have much in common. They just take different approaches to gain the same things.

I just think compared to all the countries now and in the past and the way they go about things. Our current superpower the US is probably the least worse of the bunch. I guess that too depends on where you live in this world. Whether its a ghetto in some big US city or a third world country sitting on a load of natural resources.

I agree that their must be better ways to go about things.

	21-03-2005 05:29									#53
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Imperialism and Communism(stalin style)/Fascisim can be pretty warm bedfellows, and thats my worry about the whole thing. Once you shift your idiology in that direction, certain unsavory things can raise their heads. So i think that there are other more healthy options to take.

A few points before I leave the thread:

1) The US has been an empire since at least 1803. So it's kind of hard to argue that there has been a sudden shift in that direction.

2) I know it is futile cuz it has been repeated ad nauseum but you have a fundamental misunderstanding of all aspects of what Neo-cons are and what they argue. The least of which is that it isn't an interest based foreign policy.

	21-03-2005 05:36									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Dino adding a vacuous comment? I just don't believe it.

Next thing you're going to tell me that he only appears in threads to agree with DanS and JohnT.

	21-03-2005 05:41									#55
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Hasn't he also agreed with Drake a few times? And sometimes he gets into arguments with Imran.

	21-03-2005 05:43									#56
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If you meen "gets pwn3d by Imran", then I agree with you.

	21-03-2005 05:43									#57
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I like the way this thread is going. Keep discussing me. Though discussing how the occupation was screwed up in the early days as I think Ramo wanted maybe somewhat interesting.

	21-03-2005 05:45									#58
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How? We've exhausted your entire repertoire of posting templates.

	21-03-2005 05:48									#59
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There's the ocassional agreement with Agathon (though I don't like talking about that).

	21-03-2005 06:11									#60
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc A few points before I leave the thread: 1) The US has been an empire since at least 1803. So it's kind of hard to argue that there has been a sudden shift in that direction.

Too simplistic of a view of things.

This is like comparing the Roman Empire under Commodus to the Roman Empire under Hadrian.


Currently the American Empire is being served by Puppetus