21-03-2005 17:27									#1
	N00b thread!!!!11!!1 Remove this text

At long, long last I picked up SMAC (for free, when I bought two other games), and have now come along to join in the spamfest ask for advice from those veterans of the game in this forum.

I spent all Saturday playing at infant level (or whatever the lowest is called), and easily won by conquest while not too far from transcendance. It was fun, but a little too like shooting fish in a barrel for me. So I'm going to whack up the difficulty in my next game and will require some pointers to achieve some kind of respectability.

So I'd like a single hint from everyone who usually posts here - not the "same as has been said by ......" sort, or the "read the manual" sort either. Just a single, useful, hint from everyone that will give me a fighting chance of lasting some way into the game and ensure I am not rolled over by the Gaians within four turns.

	21-03-2005 17:50									#2
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Well...I'm am definetly not an expert, but I can tell you one or two things I realized not so much ago: FREE MARKET is not that bad. It's actually quite good and its a noob sindrome to thinks its not good.
And...use many crawlers. A lot of them...and even more formers (borehole-ing)...
I don't know for sure if its good, but as a last advice, I can tell you forests are a good option. Plant some and you can forget about terraforming, except when doing boreholes/landbriges.

	21-03-2005 18:11									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Use your energy credits for rushing units and improvements, a large cash reserve is not very useful by itself. A good thing to rush in the early game are formers and crawlers when you get them.

	21-03-2005 18:39									#4
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I always like to have a little transport or two out and about as soon as possible to get those unexpected bonuses from seapods that come in ever so handy when rushing projects or cutting down on base supported units.

	21-03-2005 19:56									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Edit in your alpha.txt file a line to include Googlie's probe crusiers: this then will mean the AI will build aquatic probe units. Much more enjoyable IMO!
Unfortunately I'm at work right now and can't find a link discussing them. I'll post the info in tonight, unless someone else posts it before then.


D

	21-03-2005 20:14									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Crawler upgrading will make you a pro overnight (at least in SP).

Upgrade a crawler to a armored version with the most expensive special abilites you can get. Then cash that unit into a secret project. Where adding a standard crawler to a project might shave off a turn or so off the project, an upgraded crawler will pay for 1/3 to 1/5 of the total project.

	21-03-2005 20:25									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Depending on what level you're going to play at, use a large or huge map. With any luck you'll have time to build some good cities and have a viable defense by the time the "War Mongers" come calling on you.

	21-03-2005 20:53									#8
	Tired of ads?

Learn to pop-boom. This means getting a total of +6 population growth in each city you wish to pop-boom and feeding that city enough nutrients, either with crawlers or with enough high-nutrient squares to work. Doing this will allow you to gain 1 population point in each city each turn, giving you a dramatic growth in power if you continue pop-booming up until you reach your current maximum population.

	21-03-2005 21:58									#9
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quote: Originally posted by fender .....have a viable defense by the time the "War Mongers" come calling on you.

He is new, he may want to be a war monger, in which case, smaller maps are easier

edit: Even when I play as a builder anymore I still prefer tiny maps just because then it does stay more exciting, even if only slightly more difficult.

	21-03-2005 22:41									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hope this tip isn't too basic:

In the early part of the game, you should build lots of bases. The optimal number of bases depends on several factors, such as map size (the bigger the map, the more bases you build), but you really need to keep making bases at the start.

Keep your bases fairly close together. It's OK if the production squares overlap. You'll find plenty of discussion here about the optimal spacing, but a reasonable plan is to place the bases with two squares on the diagonal between them.

	22-03-2005 00:30									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Learn what not to build: Energy banks are nice, but only if your raw energy income is high enough; Bio labs are very rarely worthwhile; avoid Holo theaters. Build military facilities (command center, etc) sparingly, and make sure you use them (exception: aerospace complex, since it influences satellites and protects against drops). Tree farms/hybrid forests are good only if you use enough forest, and so on. Don't feel that you need to build every facility in every city.

	22-03-2005 00:43									#12
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I agree with chaos theory


PLus

1. rushing a build is a lot cheaper if you have 10 minerals accumulated already

2. Pick centauri ecology as one of your very first techs to get some formers going-- Build roads out to where your base will go to plant the colony as a new base faster

3. Put bases on crappy terrain as the underlying terrain is irrelevant to what a base produces from the base tile EXCEPT you WILL get the benefit of resource bonuses and you WILL get an extra energy for building on a river

4. Tinker with government SE choices to see their impacts

5. Don't waste resources on crap you don't need-- reread Chaos theory's post for some ideas there-- My pet one is a perimeter defense . . . I never saw the point of putting one in your base in the middle of your empire.

6. If getting attacked by sea landings think of using the shoreline blockade trick. Line your coast with units so the enemy can't get ashore. They can't attack from their naval transport without the amphibious ability and that usually comes later

7. Put a sensor on a planned base site ( on the frontier)if you can. This can't be destroyed, costs nothing but former time and lets you see those worms coming.

8. Expect the other factions to be two-timing sons o'guns

9 Play play play an

	22-03-2005 01:22									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber 2. Pick centauri ecology as one of your very first techs to get some formers going-- Build roads out to where your base will go to plant the colony as a new base faster

Question to everyone, is it more important to you to build roads to get colony pods planted faster, or more important to plant forest to get that fast early forest spread?

	22-03-2005 01:31									#14
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp Question to everyone, is it more important to you to build roads to get colony pods planted faster, or more important to plant forest to get that fast early forest spread?

I try to combine the two strategies: First task for the former is to farm a tile if no tile produces two nuts. Next (or first if I do have a two-nut tile) is to build a road on a flat tile, since that takes only one turn. Then the tile with a road gets forested. At that point my base has two good tiles and my former builds more roads.

	22-03-2005 03:02									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Petek I try to combine the two strategies: First task for the former is to farm a tile if no tile produces two nuts. Next (or first if I do have a two-nut tile) is to build a road on a flat tile, since that takes only one turn. Then the tile with a road gets forested. At that point my base has two good tiles and my former builds more roads.

I agree with Petek

My first priority is to get a two nut tile for faster growth . . . Then I usually place road on a tile or two before starting my first forest. Obviously if you can move along a river, you can do without the roads

I don't like to count on forest growth. What I count on is that getting a base planted 3 turns earlier will mean my next former comes off the production lines that much quicker

	22-03-2005 04:20									#16
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I'm a late confict/builder, so I don't go for vast expansion as only rule (that's a lie - huge map invites to expansion, but you are not in a hurry). Dammit, it even got worse since someone learned me to make 128x256 maps .

CE to get formers, Biogen to get recycle, Social ps to get rec comm, sec hum brain to get trance (I just hate it when a base is invaded by worms because of weak defence) - free tech : PN and beeline for IA. Avioding pods since they may fck up your beelining in the start (no big problem since I usually plays with the few pod option).

First and second base start buiding something but change to former when they are ready typically loss max 3 min). First base build junk until recycle and rec comm. When those are ready go for WP. Former plants forest to get max min for 3 citz after that roads to new colonies (2 or 3, then back to improve). Second base build a CP as next (former as first base). First and sec base from now on build SP's until IA (typically first base WP, second HGP - if nessecary, other bases deliver TF units until SC are available). Third and following bases produce CP's to cover expansion. That should give WP, HGP, vW and probably ME as a start - if in danger of loosing one, then don't worry about ME, it's nice to have/deny to others, but otherwise pretty worthless.

I prefer to keep my reseach at max so so income is as close to zero as possible (sometimes it's better to spend, sometimes stockpile - depends upon SE). Talking SE - PLAN, WEALTH, DEMO for starters, but as soon as possible get to KNOW - those bad units from WEALTH is a pain. But it all depends witch faction you play.

quote: Originally posted by Flubber 6. If getting attacked by sea landings think of using the shoreline blockade trick. Line your coast with units so the enemy can't get ashore. They can't attack from their naval transport without the amphibious ability and that usually comes later

On a small 10x10 island you need 38 units to do this !!! I could use those mins nessecary to support them better - if nothing else, build a SC each round.

If or rather when you get a hostile visit, and they land in forest, then wait. They will destroy the forest, and that is to your advantage if you have weak units, so so just stay behind your perimeter defence until they have done that. Of course you haven't build it, you get it free with CDF

This tactic usually gives me every SP and a sure win in transcend.

	22-03-2005 04:31									#17
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

And here is the attached alphax.txt (zipped) where you have those probe cruiser and chemical missiles, Darsnan mentioned about first.
Also two bugs are fixed:
- amphibious pods for probe teams and
- antigrav struts for air units

Don't forget to backup the original alphax.txt

Attachment: alphax.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	22-03-2005 04:42									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by livid imp Question to everyone, is it more important to you to build roads to get colony pods planted faster, or more important to plant forest to get that fast early forest spread?

I do both at the same time, road and sometimes forest and sometimes go to another tile making another road.

	22-03-2005 05:06									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat On a small 10x10 island you need 38 units to do this !!! I could use those mins nessecary to support them better - if nothing else, build a SC each round.

First-- I would never advocate building 38 units to do this -- thats funny-- what I was advocating was situational and its not long term as amphibious or air units renders the tactic useless. But it is a handy and easy way to put off an invader

Second-- USE crawlers-- the whole point is that attack and defense values are irrelevant if no one has amphibious abilities-- Crawl the resources in the coastal squares-- Each unit gathers minerals and doesn't cost any-- I often terraform coastal squares with the idea of crawling them.

Third-- The AI is stupid and will likely come from the same direction all the time and will sometime just sit there turn after turn. If I blockade even 5 or 6 tiles that can be enough . . . particularly if I have a waiting skimship in the vicinity. THat is my normal response to naval landings-- get some ships in the area and sink the transports

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat This tactic usually gives me every SP and a sure win in transcend.

leaving aside the the wastefulness of getting ALL the SPs ( except as a challenge), most folks on here win on transcend routinely and easily -- For fun try a one city challenge, or playing no crawlers, or switching sides or some other variation thats more of a challenge.

The reality is I can play any lame ass way I want and still beat the "game" on transcend-- I wouldn't then advocate the method as a good tactic-- Some examples

-- NO ships with weapons or transports may be built
-- Must declare war on anyone I meet-- no treaties or pacts
--NO FM
--NO SE switches at all
-- no defenders in any base
-- must give away every tech I get as soon as I get it to anyone that will answer

etc etc-- IN SP I have tried these things in diffeent games (and many more) and still won


My point isn't that your tactics were bad . . . they weren't but your criticism of mine was misplaced since you obviously did not understand it ( and I take the blame for not explaining more fully). My point is that the fact that you win on transcend is nice but really irrelevant since people can beat trancend doing all sorts of stuff that are less than optimal

	22-03-2005 05:55									#20
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat If or rather when you get a hostile visit, and they land in forest, then wait. They will destroy the forest, and that is to your advantage if you have weak units, so so just stay behind your perimeter defence until they have done that. Of course you haven't build it, you get it free with CDF

On to the meat of your tactic-- I think it is wrong headed to waste minerals on the CDF. Use those minerals instead to build 2-4 more crawlers (equivalency is difficult to measure depending on whether you are upgrading or not). THat is an added 4-16 resources ( if assuming 2-4 resources per crawler) each and every turn.

I simply see building the CDF as defeatist. Its a big expense to protect against attack. Quite frankly I am unimpressed with the AIs ability to wage ground warfare and believe that a decent sensor net is your best and cheapest defense. Perimeters protect only bases which I don't see being in danger since my defense is based on protecting my formers and crawlers to the best of my ability. If enemies get to my bases they are already far too far .

The only difficulty can be the naval landed troops which you may not spot in time if you don't yet have adequate patrols. Here I find a blockade of 5-8 tiles can do the trick. Against a single transport, you can even move the blockade with the transport if you have roads-- I did it once with 8 crawlers on a roaded coastline before allowing a dismbarkation point in a kill zone-- The blockade is not a huge part of my defensive strategy but in situations where it is of use, it can be a HUGE help.

What is my defensive strategy?? Simply put -- strike first-- A single command centre in a higher mineral base and pumping out a few best weapon rovers . . Arty if I have it-- kill zones with sensors and roads that I control-- Armored crawlers on rocky tiles in a pinch-- Do the upgrade only if you need to.

Against the AI you can hold off hordes of troops with a few units and convenient monolith or nearby command centre. Try it sometime . . . remember that the AI is predictable and will often follow the same routes over and over again. Spot those routse and begin the massacre

	22-03-2005 06:31									#21
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Flubber On to the meat of your tactic-- I think it is wrong headed to waste minerals on the CDF. Use those minerals instead to build 2-4 more crawlers (equivalency is difficult to measure depending on whether you are upgrading or not). THat is an added 4-16 resources ( if assuming 2-4 resources per crawler) each and every turn. I simply see building the CDF as defeatist. Its a big expense to protect against attack. Quite frankly I am unimpressed with the AIs ability to wage ground warfare and believe that a decent sensor net is your best and cheapest defense. Perimeters protect only bases which I don't see being in danger since my defense is based on protecting my formers and crawlers to the best of my ability. If enemies get to my bases they are already far too far . The only difficulty can be the naval landed troops which you may not spot in time if you don't yet have adequate patrols. Here I find a blockade of 5-8 tiles can do the trick. Against a single transport, you can even move the blockade with the transport if you have roads-- I did it once with 8 crawlers on a roaded coastline before allowing a dismbarkation point in a kill zone-- The blockade is not a huge part of my defensive strategy but in situations where it is of use, it can be a HUGE help. What is my defensive strategy?? Simply put -- strike first-- A single command centre in a higher mineral base and pumping out a few best weapon rovers . . Arty if I have it-- kill zones with sensors and roads that I control-- Armored crawlers on rocky tiles in a pinch-- Do the upgrade only if you need to. Against the AI you can hold off hordes of troops with a few units and convenient monolith or nearby command centre. Try it sometime . . . remember that the AI is predictable and will often follow the same routes over and over again. Spot those routse and begin the massacre

This is going to be short since it's late here. Usually when CDF is available to me I have a bunch of SC's just waiting to finish it in one turn, so for me it isn't a waste - my SC's hasn't anything else to do and new ones are already on their way.

Anyway, free PD taking a enemy base isn't that bad, especially if you only uses choppers and droppers.

I've just played a game where Cha Down routinely attacked me (quite idiotic since Marr at the same time took his bases one by one), but in three different places. I would at least have needed 16 units protecting the coast and that if I knew where the attacks would have been. It was fixed with four 2-2-2's who blasted the invaders away (those that was not killed when they tried to attack my CDF protected bases After I got airborne there was no problem at all.

	22-03-2005 10:02									#22
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Prelude: these ideas are not my own, but things I picked up off others.

If you play Morgan (as I do), lots of small cities becomes even more important. Ideally, you'll be running FM/Wealth (+1 energy/square +2 or +3 energy per base tile, commerce bonus) and you want to make the city tile as large as possible. If you don't mind micro, get biogenetics early and rush recycling tanks (using your free 10 minerals that come with the base, during the start of the game, I stay away from democracy until I have Industrial Automation and am going for restriction lifting) for that +1/+1/+1 on the base tile. If you hate micro (playing transcend means the turn before you city grows to size 2, you need to turn the worker into a doctor to stop riots), get social psych early and rush rec commons instead.

To counteract wealth's morale hit, make 0-0-1 probe teams (infantry chassis) and upgrade them to armored versions. It makes them count as combat units when defending (same works with formers and crawlers btw), but the downside is they're more expensive to build (should be rushing them anyway, and they're free to support, which makes up for this) and if one dies, the whole stack of them will die, so they're not quite as good as sentinels.

Oh, and vel's SMAX guide: http://db.gamefaqs.com/computer/dos...crossfire_a.txt

Read it, memorise it, live by it.

	22-03-2005 13:58									#23
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The best thing about having the CDF is that your enemies do not.

	22-03-2005 17:18									#24
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Well thanks for all the advice everyone.

I've played Civ II for years so some of this advice was a bit basic, but some will doubtless prove very useful. Even so, if any other SMAC n00bs arrive here, this thread will hopefully prove useful to them too.
Regarding the .txt file alterations, I'm going to try the original game first, bugs and all, before tweaking it to my liking, but thanks - I now know where to come for them.
I also see that some of you are so eager to help that you've posted more than one tip each.
Thanks though!

	23-03-2005 01:21									#25
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Well thanks for all the advice everyone.

Have fun

quote: I also see that some of you are so eager to help that you've posted more than one tip each.

Are you kidding - such questions are perfect for promoting personal ideas about how to play SMAC/X

	23-03-2005 01:51									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat This is going to be short since it's late here. Usually when CDF is available to me I have a bunch of SC's just waiting to finish it in one turn, so for me it isn't a waste - my SC's hasn't anything else to do and new ones are already on their way.

THis comment baffles me-- While I also finish Special projects in a turn if I wish, the concept of having supply crawlers to waste is odd to me. I ALWAYS can find a use for another crawler so its not as if there is no cost to the CDF choice-- IT costs what it costs whether you use minerals or energy ( through upgrading)

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Anyway, free PD taking a enemy base isn't that bad, especially if you only uses choppers and droppers.

If I have choppers and droppers, I am usually not too worried about my opponents ground response. Cutting attack routes to my new acquisition is usually pretty easy or you can have decimated nearby opposing forces. Don't get me wrong-- I would like having the perimeter when in conquering mode but its not a high enough desire to make me go out of my way to get it.

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat I've just played a game where Cha Down routinely attacked me (quite idiotic since Marr at the same time took his bases one by one), but in three different places. I would at least have needed 16 units protecting the coast and that if I knew where the attacks would have been. It was fixed with four 2-2-2's who blasted the invaders away (those that was not killed when they tried to attack my CDF protected bases After I got airborne there was no problem at all.

16 crawlers is not a particularly large number depending how far you are into the game. AS I said before, its not like these units can't be doing other things like adding sensors, other terraforming or collecting resources.

And as I tried to explain before , the coastal wall or blockade is a very situational tactic and to be clear it is a tactic and not a long term strategy. It can be of immense use in certain situations ( say if your best bases and terraforming are on a peninsula-- you prevent the landings in difficult places and instead allow them to land in a kill zone ) Its of moderate or even little use in other situations. I never claimed it was a cure-all for aggressive neighbors

	23-03-2005 02:30									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Flubber THis comment baffles me-- While I also finish Special projects in a turn if I wish, the concept of having supply crawlers to waste is odd to me. I ALWAYS can find a use for another crawler so its not as if there is no cost to the CDF choice-- IT costs what it costs whether you use minerals or energy ( through upgrading)

I usually play on 70-90 % sea, so there are nowhere to send the crawlers . I know it's easier with this setting, but I find it fun to start on a 4x4 island and expand it through terraforming, and no, I don't build sea colonies by choice. Further, with a 2 tile base spacing there aint many tiles to harvest with SC's. Because I don't build everything possible, I have to choose between stockpile and build SC's and prefer the latter, and then I get a stockpile of SC's.

quote: If I have choppers and droppers, I am usually not too worried about my opponents ground response. Cutting attack routes to my new acquisition is usually pretty easy or you can have decimated nearby opposing forces. Don't get me wrong-- I would like having the perimeter when in conquering mode but its not a high enough desire to make me go out of my way to get it.

Entering a long distance Ursurper island where you can't clear garrisoned forces, it's nice to have the edge of PD until the first scout unit is build.

quote: 16 crawlers is not a particularly large number depending how far you are into the game. AS I said before, its not like these units can't be doing other things like adding sensors, other terraforming or collecting resources.

I didn't consider using SC's to this purpose, so you are right, they don't need support, but i'm a little baffled. How do you terraform with a SC ??????

quote: And as I tried to explain before , the coastal wall or blockade is a very situational tactic and to be clear it is a tactic and not a long term strategy. It can be of immense use in certain situations ( say if your best bases and terraforming are on a peninsula-- you prevent the landings in difficult places and instead allow them to land in a kill zone ) Its of moderate or even little use in other situations. I never claimed it was a cure-all for aggressive neighbors

Dynamic respons is a good thing if you know where they are coming, but to know that you need a large fleet to patrol (pre air), and then it's much easier to kill the transporters before they reach land, but that again is support demanding (no problem after clean, but by then I usually are airborne).

	23-03-2005 02:58									#28
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Welcome, Duke. Read this:

http://www.civgaming.net/smac/academy.shtml

The articles by Ogie Oglethorpe are quite good, as are those by Buster. Also read the top article here:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/do...ame/198636.html

Velociryx musing on the power of economy and turn advantage revolutionized my game, they'll probably do the same to yours. I also spent some time wrestling with the search function to find Sikander's demo thread showing the awesome power of specialists and tight base spacing using the University, but didn't find it. Sik, know where it is?

	23-03-2005 05:12									#29
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat I didn't consider using SC's to this purpose, so you are right, they don't need support, but i'm a little baffled. How do you terraform with a SC ??????

Sorry that was meant to read " 16 crawlers/formers"

But I'm sure you knew that

	23-03-2005 05:25									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Sorry that was meant to read " 16 crawlers/formers" But I'm sure you knew that

That's my developer gene that acts. One part of my work are to ask beyond users ideas of what they think they want and figure out what they really need