24-03-2005 07:27									#1
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joncnunn in the New Civs thread gave me the idea of discussing which religions ought to be in Civ4. Here is what I'm thinking based on this from Locutus's update thread:

"Religion will spread through your lands and offer myriad tools to control your people more effectively and keep them happier. At some point you’ll even be able to create Great Prophets to act as immortal icons to the devout. Early screenshots (see below) seem to indicate that the religion of a city will be visible on the main map."

Indigenous or Pagan -- maybe all Civs start off as one of the two?
Christianity - possibly split up into Catholicism and Protestantism.. maybe Orthodox as well
Judaism
Islam - I'm not familiar with all the different sects
Hinduism
Janism
Buddhism
Confucianism
Taoism
Shinto


I'm not sure how worthy it is for Taoism or a religion like Janism to be included, though. The best idea is probably not to split up major religions, like Christianity, into sub-religions, and also, only including the VERY MAJOR religions to not over do it. In that case indigenous and/or pagan, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, and Shinto.

Although, maybe specific religions won't be used at all and instead religious terms. Pagan, atheism, polytheism, monotheism, agnostic, pantheism, etc...


Has there been any other speculation on this already?

	24-03-2005 08:03									#2
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Civs can start "indigenous" or Pagan out of the box, but I'd want to mod it so they start out with some form of monotheism. Your 2 or 3 way split for Christianity sounds about right to me. Judaism I guess would be unified, at least at first. I reckon the main sects of Islam are Sunni and Shia (Shiite), but I'm no expert on the subject, especially the spelling or nomenclature. Maybe realworld religious symbols would represent madeup religions? But I doubt it.

	24-03-2005 08:30									#3
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Some problems I foresee with using real worlds religions are offencing people on the idea of indigenous religions being "basic" or "underdeveloped" and which countries exactly are to become Judaic? Even if an Israeli Civ is included that would be the only Civ to be Judaic. Plus the whole idea of different sects of religions on which ones to included and disclude. I'm interested to see whether real world religions will be used and to what extent if they are.

	24-03-2005 08:36									#4
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I guess we'd have to have a kingdom of Israel as well as a kingdom of Judah... or more than half the slots would have to be taken up by each of the twelve tribes... or we'd have to include a ficticious civ for Israel to share Judaism with... or... we could treat monotheism as a specific realworld religion.

	24-03-2005 08:52									#5
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The problem with using monotheism as a religion is that it sums up basically all of the major religions in the world depending on interpretations. Also, which Civs will have which religions then must mean indeginous will be a religion, since how else can you represent the different religions of the Aztecs, Vikings, Zulu, and other nations of that sort? Then comes the idea that all religions should be able to have the same effects as one another not to make one religion "better" than another, especially when it comes to the idea of monotheism, polytheism, and pantheism.

The whole Great Prophet idea I wonder if it will similarly to the MGL and SGL. Maybe after a city reaches a certain culture there is a X% chance a prophet will be spawned. Beijing reaches 10,000 culture and Lao-Tzu is spawned would be the way I'm picturing it. Maybe they help decrease war weariness and increase happiness as long as they are alive for maybe X amount of turns.

	24-03-2005 09:15									#6
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Maybe Rome will be the only Christian civ. Or maybe what we're discussing requires multiple denominations of Chrisianity: Roman Catholics, Scandinavian Lutherans, Russian Orthodox. And the Americans can be officially secular or something.

	28-03-2005 07:31									#7
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Dude, Zoroastrianism. I mean, come on! It's an essential religion, historically.

	28-03-2005 08:25									#8
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The thing about Eastern philosophies is it's hard to seperate them. In Asian cultures, people don't necessarily identify themselves as Taoist, or Confuscian, or Buddhist as they tend to overlap, particularly in China. Indeed, it's hard for non-Christian to tell the different Christian sects apart. So perhaps having Major->Minor classifications would correctly be the way to go. Civs would fall into either just one or multiple Major Catagories, which would have the effects, while in the demographics we would see the Minor catagory breakdown.

6 Major catagories with included Minor catagories I can think off:
Christianity-
-Roman Catholic
-Greek Orthodox
-Protestant
-Anglican
-Baptist
-Mormon
-Evangelical etc.
Judaism-
-Orthodox
-Kabbalah etc
Islam-
-Sunni
-Shia
-Sufi etc
Hindu-
-etc
Eastern-
-Confuscian
-Shinto
-Taoist
-Buddhism etc
Indigenous-
-etc

Giving the Minor catagories unique effects might complicate gameplay too much, and more ominously would likely be offensive to someone somewhere at sometime.

	28-03-2005 11:06									#9
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Dude, Zoroastrianism. I mean, come on! It's an essential religion, historically.

That's a good point for the Persians, but I'm not sure how specific the religions will be. At any rate, I'm sure I left out many important religions that could be named.

DRoseDARs, that wouldn't be a bad idea splitting the religions into different categories like that. An idea would be to have a major category called Indian and keep the Eastern category, as well. The seperation could be like this:

Indian-
-Hinduism
-Buddhism
-Jainism-

Eastern-
-Confucianism
-Taoism
-Shinto

With those two categories each having three religions apiece it could be a good rule of thumb to have each major category only contain three minor categories.

quote: Giving the Minor catagories unique effects might complicate gameplay too much, and more ominously would likely be offensive to someone somewhere at sometime.

I'm very interested to see how Firaxis implements religion and whether each religion will have different effects or not. I think the religion a Civ will become might relate to the Civ-Uniqueness and no particular religion has any benefit over another; it would merely just be a name for labeling. Considering Firaxis' politcally correct nature, which I hope doesn't spell over into the game too much, that's a likely outcome for religion.

	28-03-2005 14:48									#10
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins I'm very interested to see how Firaxis implements religion and whether each religion will have different effects or not. I think the religion a Civ will become might relate to the Civ-Uniqueness and no particular religion has any benefit over another; it would merely just be a name for labeling. Considering Firaxis' politcally correct nature, which I hope doesn't spell over into the game too much, that's a likely outcome for religion.

Sounds logical.
Some kind of State Religion, which you can spread to other cities by means of Prophets/Priests (well, I hope that it can also be spread by trade [which was AFAIR the means by which the romans got knowledge of other beliefs, like the egyptian gods, which lead to many romans including them into their belief system])

	28-03-2005 23:54									#11
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And there are those who mix Christianity with other religions, like in parts of Latin America and the Philippines, I think.

Do we want the game to make Anglican, Baptist, etc, separate from Protestant? Maybe LDS and I don't know, Seventh Day Adventists should be covered by a more generic label covering restorationists and others who consider themselves neither Catholic, Orthodox, etc or Protestant. Does anyone think any actual religious organizations might object to their portrayal in the game? I'm wondering if mine would, although personally I think it might be fun to be in. I think religious Traits are best left to the individual player, or maybe people could post options to choose from on Poly.

Hmm... a handcart unit...

	29-03-2005 02:14									#12
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I'd like the religions to not be real life religions, but rather have random names, random stats etc. In essence, I'd like something like proposed in the old List.

	29-03-2005 02:18									#13
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I guess what would really be best is if those religious symbols we saw in screenshots are simply assigned to generic religions, as I mentioned earlier.

	29-03-2005 03:59									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai I'd like the religions to not be real life religions, but rather have random names, random stats etc. In essence, I'd like something like proposed in the old List.

What sort of stats would there be? I'm having a hard time figuring what sort of implementations religion could have in the game. IF religion X is monotheistic what differences would it have over polytheistic religion Y? All religions (outside of some Eastern religions which are closely related to social orders or philosophies) serve basically the same purpose; I don't see how one religion could have different benefits than another. What were some of the ideas explained in the Old List, if you know off-hand? I don't see how religions could be differently represent from one another; it seems to me they should all serve the same purpose within the game regardless of what type of religion it is.

quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST Some kind of State Religion, which you can spread to other cities by means of Prophets/Priests (well, I hope that it can also be spread by trade [which was AFAIR the means by which the romans got knowledge of other beliefs, like the egyptian gods, which lead to many romans including them into their belief system]))

I would imagine religion will almost definitely play a role coinciding with culture, but how that would play out I don't know. What I would like to see is a new system for determining borders. Possibly make it a combination of cultural, religious, and military influence. Culture would be gained by building Libraries, Colosseums; religion would be gained by building Temples, Cathedrals; military would be gained by military units and manning fortresses/bases could be a nice touch, as well. The overall sum average of the three would determine how far a Civ's borders would extend. At the very least, my concept would be a vast improvement over the complexity and dynamics of the current culture only system.

	29-03-2005 04:10									#15
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Another option would be to emulate the way religion was handled in Europa Universalis II (I never had the first game). If I recall correctly, special traits were never given to individual religions, instead it was a matter of either cohesiveness of religion or tolerable levels of instability between multiple religions.

	29-03-2005 04:11									#16
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Religion part is ~19 pages long. I suggest you download the file yourself and see. I'll see through it afterwards if I get time and check if there is something specific on stats, don't remember off hand.

	29-03-2005 06:58									#17
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The religion stats that would be easiest to imagine would at least be percieved as one being superior over another. One would at least be percieved as being more enlightened than another. I am talking about each player's interpretation of the out of the box effects. The stats could be liberal versus conservative, and I suppose some of the same Traits assigned to Civs in Civ3. And there could be organized versus unorganized. Would we want various gods that actually intervene on the behalf of their followers? Would you be able to tangibly take the role of a god and control a religion instead of a civ, but the civs would still be there? Or be an earthly leader of a religion instead of a god?

Maybe there could be equal advantages to sharing a religion with other civs, equal to embracing or accepting multiple ones within your civ. Maybe whether you shared a religion or whether you accepted more than one would be about the deepest religion would get in the game.

I think the most tangible effects maybe at most should be unique units. I think this would be more politically correct than Traits like in Civ3. If anything.

	29-03-2005 23:35									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Another option would be to emulate the way religion was handled in Europa Universalis II (I never had the first game). If I recall correctly, special traits were never given to individual religions, instead it was a matter of either cohesiveness of religion or tolerable levels of instability between multiple religions.

Er, no, there are special traits in EU2 - Catholics get more diplos, Counter Reform Catholics can insist on conversion in a peace treaty, Protestants get financial advantages, etc. Which then conflicts with the cohesiveness/instability effect (IE I want Protestant for the ducats, but i dont want rebellions in my mainly Catholic provinces - what should I do?)

Not sure id like that in a Civ game though - for the same reasons i dont like national traits in a civ game either.

	29-03-2005 23:38									#19
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BTW Judaism should be just one religion - Kabbalah is just mysticism, its not a seperate denomonation - the whole denominational thing only really shows up for J in the industrial age, and even then isnt as clear cut as for Christianity. And really, J isnt a big enough player in history as a state religion to justify more than one slot.

	29-03-2005 23:43									#20
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You left out Methodists, Lutherns, Presbetryans, Church of Christ and there's several varities of Baptists.

There is even Non-Denominational Christians. (Multiple varities)

How to tell your methodist neighbor apart from your southern baptist neighbor: Your methodist neighbor will say hello to you at the liquor store.

Under Judaism, the largest group is Reform Judism [two kinds]. Orthodox and the like are only about 10%.

Under Islam / Muslim, the major group you left out is Wanabism. [sp?] They seem to be the closest thing under Islam / Muslim to Church of Christ under Christainity. (Wanabism historicaly taught [and still does] that they are the only "true muslims" and Church of Christ historically taught [started discontinuing that in the late 60s thru mid 70s] that they were the only "true Christians".

It's no surprize that in the US that David Kerish was from a splinter group (a few times over) from Church of Christ and that in Saudi Arabia that Ben Laden formed Al-kada from Wanabis.

In the game, for the epic version of Civ IV relgions, if they splinter Chrtistanity at all it will be between Catholism, Protestanism, and perhaps Ortothdox.

Protestants in the US can't tell Orthodox very much apart from Catholics other than Orthodox celebarating Easter (and consequently Palm Sunday, Muady Thrusday, and Good Friday) at a different time than us. (Usally, but not always one week later.)
And also the Greek Orthodox churches tend to on a fairly regular basis invite the public to Greek style meals.

Can't see the epic game splintering Judaism.

Can't see the epic game splintering Islam either. A version of the Middle ages would.

quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs The thing about Eastern philosophies is it's hard to seperate them. In Asian cultures, people don't necessarily identify themselves as Taoist, or Confuscian, or Buddhist as they tend to overlap, particularly in China. Indeed, it's hard for non-Christian to tell the different Christian sects apart. So perhaps having Major->Minor classifications would correctly be the way to go. Civs would fall into either just one or multiple Major Catagories, which would have the effects, while in the demographics we would see the Minor catagory breakdown. 6 Major catagories with included Minor catagories I can think off: Christianity- -Roman Catholic -Greek Orthodox -Protestant -Anglican -Baptist -Mormon -Evangelical etc. Judaism- -Orthodox -Kabbalah etc Islam- -Sunni -Shia -Sufi etc Hindu- -etc Eastern- -Confuscian -Shinto -Taoist -Buddhism etc Indigenous- -etc Giving the Minor catagories unique effects might complicate gameplay too much, and more ominously would likely be offensive to someone somewhere at sometime.

	30-03-2005 03:35									#21
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I've heard Madonna follows Kabbalah as if it is a distinct religion, but I agree that if such categorization is justified it is not significant enough for the game.

This is about rewriting history, so maybe things don't have to be quite like the real world: Christian denominations can be treated as less connected to each other than in reality, we don't necessarily have to wory so much about how numerous the followers are as how distinct the denominations are. Thus could be an excuse for differentiating between orthodox/ conservative/ liberal/ reform Judaism. Or is this exactly the sort of political correctness problems we need to worry about?

What do a few Poly Protestants think about whether they should be lumped together or separated into Anglican, Baptist, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc? Is there a need to distinguish between different types of Baptists? Would we want the game to recognize some Christians as being nondenominational with others getting more specific?

Do you think scenarios would really get more detailed with religion than the epic game?

Are we straying too far from what's actually relevant to the game?

	30-03-2005 03:46									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Brent I've heard Madonna follows Kabbalah as if it is a distinct religion, but I agree that if such categorization is justified it is not significant enough for the game. This is about rewriting history, so maybe things don't have to be quite like the real world: Christian denominations can be treated as less connected to each other than in reality, we don't necessarily have to wory so much about how numerous the followers are as how distinct the denominations are. Thus could be an excuse for differentiating between orthodox/ conservative/ liberal/ reform Judaism. Or is this exactly the sort of political correctness problems we need to worry about? What do a few Poly Protestants think about whether they should be lumped together or separated into Anglican, Baptist, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc? Is there a need to distinguish between different types of Baptists? Would we want the game to recognize some Christians as being nondenominational with others getting more specific? Do you think scenarios would really get more detailed with religion than the epic game? Are we straying too far from what's actually relevant to the game?

Ya well Madonnas a flake. Selling Kabbalah as a distinct religion is just good marketing, by people trying to make bucks off Kabballah. You might as well call Santa Claus worship a branch of Christianity. Feh!

As for Reform,C, and O - no theyre NOT that distinct.

	30-03-2005 07:10									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai I'd like the religions to not be real life religions, but rather have random names, random stats etc. In essence, I'd like something like proposed in the old List.

Turywenzo lives!

	31-03-2005 03:43									#24
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I'm a Methodist and used to be a Southern Baptist, in the epic game, the Protestants should be lumped together. My dad was also in the US Navy.

Now if some makes a 1500 - 1700 europe scenario in Civ 4, then there might be a need to make Luthern [Northern Germany + Sweeden offical religion], Angelian [offical religion of England], and Calvinism [offical relgion of Scotland] all distinct. (But if focus is on Exploration and conquest of Americas that degree would be overkill.)

quote: Originally posted by Brent What do a few Poly Protestants think about whether they should be lumped together or separated into Anglican, Baptist, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc? Is there a need to distinguish between different types of Baptists? Would we want the game to recognize some Christians as being nondenominational with others getting more specific? Do you think scenarios would really get more detailed with religion than the epic game? Are we straying too far from what's actually relevant to the game?

	31-03-2005 03:56									#25
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Well that actually somehow makes it sound to me like maybe the epic game really should have separate denominations for England and for the Vikings.

	02-04-2005 04:50									#26
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Religions of course will be somelike the governments, and will allow different city improvments. All the religions should have culture bonus, but some should have: Sacrifice for culture bonus (Indigenous or ancient ones); Economical bonuses/penalties (Protestantism/Eastern); Science bonuses/penalties (Catholicism/Islamism); Resistance to culture flip/nationality change (Judaism); Religious (in)tolerance happiness bonus/penalties (Budhism, Eastern, Polytheism/Catholicism, Islamism).
And religion diplomacy rate (Low for Catholicism-Islamism, High for Catholicism-Catholicism, for example).

	02-04-2005 07:24									#27
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Yeah, I guess I forgot about wonders and city improvements. Some of your bonuses and penalties sound relatively good. I would think that when there is a schism, the two sides would get along poorly at first and reconcile after some time. Maybe if there are two successive related schisms, the halves of the second one would still get along better with each other than with the other half of the earlier split. Maybe toward the end of the game religions in general would automatically get fairly friendly?

Maybe more than one completely different religion model should be available out of the box, and other aspects of the game too, or at least make sure you can make such changes yourself (likely), maybe the main point of expansions this time around would be swapping model modules/ giving such detailed new options.

	05-04-2005 00:54									#28
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Would the idea of atheists/non denominational be a choice as well..?

	05-04-2005 04:04									#29
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It certainly should. I certainly hope it's at least possible in the late game, and there's no reason it shouldn't be in the early game either. Like diplomacy, combat, technology, or any other model, it should be possible to turn religion off alltogether when you want to.

	05-04-2005 04:26									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Platypus Rex Would the idea of atheists/non denominational be a choice as well..?

That could include the most shunned religion in diplomacy but allow for the best scientific research.