26-03-2005 03:41									#1
	Renewable Energies for CIV 4 ! Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

As a professor on that field, I would like to promote the use of
Renewable Energies in CIV4. While other technologies are discussed
quite deeply, the use of renewables in CIV 3 (esp. Solar and Wind) was
superficial. Power output of renewables is sufficient to supply all
countries with energy. Renewable energy output is depending on much
more external parameters than conventional power plants and should be
considered in the game; as:
Local ground surface, distance from coast, latitude (wind), local
climate, temperature, shadowing (solar; some basic ideas have been
realized in SMAC, nice!)
Water resource, height of mountains (hydropower)
The different properties of solar thermal (works good at high ambient
temperatures) and photovoltaic systems (works good in cold, but sunny
climates) should be applied yet.
Therefore renewables are of the biggest options of future energy
supply (beside fusion I don't know any other) some more attention
should be paid for them.
Additionally renewables should also have some impact on the politic
and social structure:
Less pollution (less angry people), less dependence from import of
fossil fuels (trade need for coal as in CIV2-3 gets satisfied
automatically), if decentralized renewables are used (solar roofs) the
whole infrastructure is less vulnerable to blackouts and attack on
power plants (e.g. less loss of population during war). Due to limits
in resources, conventional energy should get more expensive within
time, while the costs of use of renewables should get cheaper due to
technology advances.

Here are my suggestions for renewable and conventional energy sources
in CIV3.

Coal mining: costs for maintenance are increasing by time (longer and
deeper mines) from to 2 to 4 shields. After 100 years of operation
resource of coal mine is finished.
Use of energy generated by coal is generating 100% pollution (25%
after the invention of air filters). Pollution is causing some amount
of unhappiness. Earthquake kills some units of population (miners)
Building costs are 100 shields. Production is 25 per year. Lifetime of
coalmine is 100 years. Lifetime of coal power plant is 20 to 25 years.
Recover from recycling: 7.

Hydropower:
Only possible near rivers and lakes: mountains 200 % energy
production, but cost also 100 % more to build. Hills: 100% energy
production, flat land: 50 % energy production, big rivers are doubling
energy production. Due to climatic changes production of hydro power
can vary (e.g. more rainfall: small rivers get to big rivers and
double energy production, in dry periods big rivers get to small
rivers, under extreme conditions desertification can make power
production impossible, earthquakes can cause flooding within the
surrounding, lower squares (1-2 squares for hydro power plants built
in hilly regions, 2-4 squares for power plants build in mountain
regions). Maintenance costs are one shield.
Building costs are 200 shields. Production is 25. Lifetime is 40
years. Recover from recycling: 25.

Wind:
Works best in coastal areas: 200% energy generation, deserts are
generally calm (50%). Sole hills and single mountains give 200% power
production. Valleys are bad (30 %). Regions a bit away from the poles
produce 150% of power ("roaring forties"). Hills, wood, other wind
turbines and close obstacles (next square) reduce power (70 %).
Maintenance is 2, in stormy areas (e.g. mountains 3). Building costs
are 50 shields, generation is 10. Earthquakes could lead to total
destruction in 50% of the cases. Floods do not interfere. Wind
generators bulked directly near town squares may cause some
unhappiness (noise).
Lifetime is 15-20 years. Recover from recycling 7 shields.

SOLAR ENERGY: General:
Irradiated solar energy onto Earth is gradually increasing from 700
kWh/sqm per year in Polar Regions to 2200 kWh/sqm per year in regions
close to the equator – this results in a triple energy production!

Solar thermal power plants:
Work best in sunny and warm places (deserts): Energy production is 70%
from standard near the poles; near equator is 200%. Desert gives an
additional increase of 20%. Humid areas produce 20% less.
Construction of plants in woods and valleys decreases power by 25 %
due to shadowing. Building costs are 200 shields. Power generation is
25. Maintenance costs are 2 shields. Earthquake and flooding decrease
power production by 50%. Lifetime is 25 years. Recover from recycling:
100.

Photovoltaics:
Energy production in Polar Regions is 70 % from standard; near equator
is 200%. Deserts give a 10% minus (heat is decreasing the voltage of
solar cells). Hills give a 10% plus (cooler, increases voltage).
Mountains give a 20% in power production. Costs to build in mountain
areas are double.
Construction of plants in woods and valleys decreases power by 25 %
due to shadowing.
Maintenance costs are 1 shield. Building costs are 320 shields, after
the invention of Thin Film Semiconductor Technology: 180 shields.
Power generation is 25. Earthquakes and flooding do not harm (solar
cells even work in space).
Lifetime is 30 years. Recover from recycling: 200, for Thin Film
Technology: 100.

Nuclear:
Power generation is 25, works for 35 years, costs 180, maintenance is
3. Nuclear power causes unhappiness and may cause scandals, especially
when a university town is close by. Possibility of an accident.
Vulnerable to military attack and earthquakes (radiation kills in 4
squares around). Nuclear waste has to be watched by a military unit
for 12000 time units. One square is sufficient for 10 years of nuclear
waste. The reactor itself has to be treated as a nuclear waste square
after the end of its lifetime. Recover from recycling: -40 (reactor
has to be sealed).

Biomass:

Energy from biomass can be generated from three sources:

1. Agriculture

1.1 A part of agriculture waste can be transformed into energy: having
a biogas plant in a city is giving one energy unit for each two
farming products.

1.2 Also farming could be directly used to produce energy: Instead of
food, energy in the harvest: e.g. sugarcane can be distilled to
alcohol which serves as fuel for cars (1990 60% of the cars in Brazil
had been running on that) while also the waste could be used, I
suggest an efficiency of 150% compared to food production.

2. Waste
Waste and pollution production in a city with a biomass plant is
sinking by 50%,
25% of the original produced waste and pollution can be transformed
into energy.

3. Woods
Waste directly form the woods (dead trees) and indirectly in the city
(e.g. from carpenters etc.) can be transformed into energy. For each
two shields produced in a wood, one energy unit is generated.

I suggest a cost to erect a biomass plant of about 60 shields,
maintenance of 2, energy production as shown above.

I tried to model all as realistic as possible, but in order keep it
playable; we also could use infinite lifetime for the power plants.

suggestion:
Use energy completely separate from shields and from trade (similar to
SMAC).
Energy did always occur, not only in modern times. In former times
Firewood
(to be found in woods, or as a byproduct of agriculture) was
collected, but hardly traded:
If no firewood is present, survival in colder climatic zones was
impossible.
Energy requirement in different parts of the world should be
different: cities
in extreme climates (tropic, polar or alpine)require more energy.
Energy is required not only for production, but also for survival of
population and maintenance.

	26-03-2005 08:30									#2
	Support Apolyton

The only problem I see is that we have yet to devise a form of government that would allow much of that stuff to be worked out. Ralph Nader isn't a serious candidate you see...

	26-03-2005 09:24									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Capt Dizle The only problem I see is that we have yet to devise a form of government that would allow much of that stuff to be worked out. Ralph Nader isn't a serious candidate you see...

By "we" do you mean humanity as a whole, or american voters?

	26-03-2005 15:30									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yup... already done around Germany and Austria, I think also Australia. Lots of research is done in many countries, but the issue is often that at the present state it is still not extremely productive (yet it is constantly getting better).

	26-03-2005 22:14									#5
	Tired of ads?

RE are productive

the largest power plant on the planet is powered by
renewables (hydro) 14,600 MW, that is more than 10 big nuclear power plants (Itaipu, Brazil)
http://www.solar.coppe.ufrj.br/itaipu.html

In Germany, 17,000 MW of wind power plants are installed, suppling 7% of the total electricity consumption.
http://www.renewableenergyaccess.co.../story?id=23584
http://www.planetark.com/dailynewss...29674/story.htm

24% of all gasoline sold in Brazil is bio´ethanole from sugar cane and Brazil starts exporting for half the price than oil
http://www.energybulletin.net/2120.html

Iceland runs a 100% on renewables, Norway 99%

solar cell production reached 1000 MW per year

nuclear prooved to be more expensive, unsave, vunerable, not only to greenish governemnts, even in the US no nuclear plant was built for the last 20 years.

	26-03-2005 23:46									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Hey, this is civ, not "energy management". And I don't think that it will be probably included in the game, the renewables energies are a new thing and Firaxis don't use ideas that are so actual. The idea is good, but will depend of so many things: terrain, near terrains, latitude, heat, food, production, disaters, rain... What do the energy should do? Reduce production time, raise happiness, Reduces death by disease?

	27-03-2005 04:13									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ever hear of Oil Shale? There's a guy in Utah who claims he can refine it for $16/barrel. Even if he's wrong it's becoming competitive. The neocons are gonna love this: 2.1 trillion barrels of the world's 2.6 trillion barrel reserves are in the US.

As for maintence, I usually ignore any cost in gold, and in sheilds, it will make sense to build in large cities than small. A city that gets 7 shields with a factory and a maintence of 3 will get a net of 4 shields, while a city that gets 30 shields from a factory will get a net of 27 shields.

IMHO, pollution penalties are the only thing that makes sense.

Last edited by realpolitic on 27-03-2005 at 04:24

	27-03-2005 16:04									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by realpolitic Ever hear of Oil Shale? There's a guy in Utah who claims he can refine it for $16/barrel. Even if he's wrong it's becoming competitive. [/url]

What does that have to do with renewable energy?

	27-03-2005 17:58									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I agree it exists and is important. My point is not that hydro-electricity is not productive. I was talking more about these new bio-trends. Solar, wind...

Solar ia in development, and this 7% for Germany is still... 7%. And they have a whole lot of these big things in the landscape (just as Austria). They get their electricity from nuclear France while condemning nuclear (as Austria with Slovakia). It is still to be developed further, and could be some nice tech as the last one pertaining to energy... but it is still in development and saying that it is all productive still goes surfing with truth: we will really see how hard it hits when research will have been pushed some more. And this will be seen as the future unfolds.

I don't believe that Civ would start having 10 different energy centrals... maybe a simple representation of all this.

	29-03-2005 13:05									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Use energy completely separate from shields and from trade (similar to SMAC).

Energy did always occur, not only in modern times. In former times
Firewood (to be found in woods, or as a byproduct of agriculture) was collected, but hardly traded: .

Lets not forget dried dung

If no firewood is present, survival in colder climatic zones was
impossible.
Please explain the survival at the north pole. Maybe in the early eras, but not later

Energy requirement in different parts of the world should be
different: cities in extreme climates (tropic, polar or alpine)require more energy.
Energy is required not only for production, but also for survival of
population and maintenance

This might make people think before attacking if they cant get the heating oil imported?

	01-04-2005 13:14									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

to Trifna
Germany is importing very little electricity from France,
grow in RE is 30% per zear

	01-04-2005 13:18									#12
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Platypus Rex If no firewood is present, survival in colder climatic zones was impossible. Please explain the survival at the north pole. Maybe in the early eras, but not later OK lets limit the need for firewood at the Northpole to pre-industry ages. Energy requirement in different parts of the world should be different: cities in extreme climates (tropic, polar or alpine)require more energy. Energy is required not only for production, but also for survival of population and maintenance This might make people think before attacking if they cant get the heating oil imported?

Yes.

	01-04-2005 20:57									#13
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

And which percentage of German electricity comes from wind? Which % from nuclear?

I know they do get nuclear from France... And everything I heard, should it be from pro or anti, is that it is still research, research and more research. And this includes sources in investment communities looking into it.

	01-04-2005 21:01									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Polution is being heavilly revised in Civ IV. They are removing "whack a mole" type and replacing it with something else. Maybe something like every X skulls decreases food, gold, and shield production in that city?

Solar Plants, Nuclaear Plants, Hyrdo Plants, and Hoovers Dam are already in Civ III so I assume they'll still be in Civ IV

Photovoltaics is probably too new to include at all.

Energy should remain abstract and represented by shield bonsuses. This eliminates the need for Biomass entirely; it's abstracted. [shield bonus for whales, the shields from forest, etc.]

Good points that the Solar Plants shield bonsus should be depedent upon terriagn type and how close it is to the equator and the Hyro Plant shield bonsus should be bigger on a hill than grassland/plains/desert.

As to having to replace plants over time, keep that abstracted under "maintance costs" like everything else. Players would not appreciate having to replace structures frequently.

	02-04-2005 03:55									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

Have any civ game included equator? Equator, north, south, west, east, are all human created concepts.

	02-04-2005 04:56									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Elda king Have any civ game included equator? Equator, north, south, west, east, are all human created concepts.

Not anymore than "up" is a human created concept...

	03-04-2005 22:02									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thanks for the replies,
instead of maintenance we may use adequate fuel consumption (plant may be cheap to build, but has more consumption, older plants have more consumption, RE has no fuel consumption), fuel prices may rise considerably when the planets stock goes to its end (according to Shell at 2040).

The equator is not created by humans, its given astronomy, that’s where the sun hits perpendicular most of the time on the planet (e.g. 3/21 and 9/22 at midday), where are virtually no seasons (always 12 hrs day and night, so no seasonal storage for solar energy is necessary), and usually receives a lot of sunshine. Its on a horizontal line in the middle of the map. The Poles are on the top and on the bottom line of the map, this is already implemented in CIV.

	03-04-2005 23:47									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I dont want to see renewable energy in Civ4 if it is not going beyond the present day. At the present time its contributes a very small percentage of resource production in the world, specific locations such as Iceland aside. Have it as a pollution reducer, but thats all.

	04-04-2005 03:38									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

humanity existed for 50,000 years only with renewables, only for a period of 300 years fossil fuels (1750 to 2050 a.d.) have been / will be used, then it will go back to renewables.

By the way - fossile fuels are stored solar energy: photosynthesis by plants, they were food for microorganisms 150,000,000 years ago, then turned into oil, gas and coal (with a total conversion efficiency of 0.0000001%)

	07-04-2005 03:30									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: quote: Originally posted by realpolitic Ever hear of Oil Shale? There's a guy in Utah who claims he can refine it for $16/barrel. Even if he's wrong it's becoming competitive. Originally posted by General Ludd What does that have to do with renewable energy?

There's about twice as much Oil from Shale as from conventional oil, for a game that goes to 2100, that's enough. There is also Natural Gas in the form of Ocean Hydrates, that is nearly practical.

My proposal is this: we have technologies for Shale, Wind and Solar.


Traits of techonogies

Coal - Unlimited Very dirty Very lowtech (Coal still causes 30,000 deaths/year in US), cheapest
Oil - Limited, dirty lowtech,cheap

Nuclear - Limited (Uraniunium only is created in a supernova) dangerous medium tech (1950's), expensive
Nuclear breeder - Unlimited (plutonium producing), Extremly dangerous, expensive ,dirty (there was a book "We almost lost Detroit" about a plant that almost blew up like a nuke, medium tech (1966) - might be OK if the wind would blow radioactivity on your neighbor.

Advanced techs
Oil Shale - unlimited (if the game goes to 2100), dirty, cheap
Wind - can only produce 50% a countries power, clean, medium priced
Solar - clean, most expensive

	07-04-2005 08:10									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sorry to criticize, as I can see you put a lot of thought into this Rio, but your ideas seem to me to be way too detailed for Civ. SimCity on the other hand might be able to use some of these ideas as it has already got various types of power plants. Or even better, someone could create a new game named something like "Energy Tycoon" or "Sim Fuel".

I think the abstract way Civilization handles power plants is good enough, though I'd like to see a 'health' aspect added for pollution (not just unhappiness, like some people suggest). Coal Plants represent all of the dirty fossil fuel plants (coal, oil, peat). Hydro and Nuclear Plants are already in the game. (I would like to see Fusion Plants bought back.) And Solar Plants represent all of the various clean renewables (like thermal and photovoltaic solar, wind, geothermal, and perpetual motion plants). I don't think we need to break them down into 8 or so different types of plants.

Having said that, I like the idea of nuclear plants being vulnerable to "military attack" and causing pollution if destroyed in that way.

	08-04-2005 01:13									#22
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I don't think adding 3 new kinds of power plants, overcomplecates the game, it's just adding new improvements as time, technology, and the new situations arise.

	08-04-2005 06:44									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

You're right. It wouldn't overcomplicate the game. It would "over-detail" the game. If we add three more power plants, why not have six types of factories? Or four different types of barracks? Etc, etc. They could each have their own benefits/drawbacks.

Why not? Because they would make the game tedious with too many choices. Four plants is enough!

Like I said, these ideas belong in Sim City. If I saw the ideas on one of the Sim City forums, I'd be giving the !

	09-04-2005 02:22									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It would actually only add Oil Shale and Wind while subtracting Fusion. The main purpose of Breeder plants is as a covert weapon. Nuclear Power plants produce hundreds of time as much power as nukes, now if a breeder went supercriticl, imagine the fallout of an "accident" on your competion downwind.

	09-04-2005 22:35									#25
	Got spare money?

No, 4 are allright! If you want changes, make: Combustion Plants, Hydro Plants, Nuclear Plants and Renewable Plant.

	17-04-2005 22:00									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Renewable Energy You could make this an option only for a new type of green government.