04-04-2005 20:30									#151
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Hmmm... my thinking is to keep player order fixed for the best comparisons, but I'm open. Thoughts from the gallery?

	04-04-2005 21:15									#152
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I'd prefer it tweaked for optimal playing times. It gets the games flowing quicker.

	04-04-2005 22:58									#153
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Theseus, please switch the civs for BigDork and me around. (Me with France, BigDork with Scandanavia)

As for play order: The main thing is, if two partners are staging a coordinated attack, the ability to both attack simultaneously is big. (Think PTWDG with the Legoland team instead being an alliance comprised of two teams... if one of those teams had been between GS and GoW in the play order, you might have seen a different kind of endgame slugfest than what happened with there being no Legoland Team 2 in that slot.)

I'm not going to quit if order is optimized for speed, but I think it will give teams that are bunched together an advantage.

	05-04-2005 00:32									#154
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I'm with Kloreep that the mixed teams presents a better overall scenario.

	05-04-2005 00:40									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear One of the main principals of the AU is to compare the games, and try to see what others did that you could have done better. Having two maps limits that, and creates an extra load of work.

A *huge* extra load of work! That's why I wrote "painful." My thought was that the LA games would still be easily compared with each other, and FFA games (if more than one) with each other as well, solely to permit some folks to play both styles. Almost certainly not worth the hassle on the setup side!

	05-04-2005 00:52									#156
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When it comes to play order, I dont think there is anything wrong with the current fixed lineup, however I also wouldnt mind teams being backed together... but I wouldnt know the Pros and Cons of such a lineup.

But whatever the play order is, I dont mind I just want the play to start!

	05-04-2005 00:56									#157
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I think we are going to stick with a fixed order... to difficult to set-up otherwise, and certainly simpler from a comparison perspective.

	05-04-2005 02:17									#158
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Let's start!

	05-04-2005 02:20									#159
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Start it already then. I want the unique chance of getting run over by Aeson with a spear and 3 warriors

	05-04-2005 02:48									#160
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Theseus, is there already enough people
to complete the LA 5?

	05-04-2005 02:57									#161
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Nope, we need two more.

	05-04-2005 05:36									#162
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For the FFA game (if not for others), it's simple to just post the scenario file instead of the 'save' ... then the order can be tweaked by whomever starts the game (the first player, or some alternate person like Theseus). I strongly suggest tweaking it, however, especially for the FFA game but also for the regular; otherwise it won't finish in time. Look at games that are untweaked or poorly tweaked (can anyone say, "Team Game", Aqua? ) play sooooo much slower, 4-5 days between turns even on decent play schedules by each player, compared to 1 turn/day on a good turn rotation ...

IE, the advantage (fast turn play) far outweighs the disadvantages (harder to set up, which it isn't really; and what's the comparison difficulty?). I don't think mosf of the games will finish if they're not order-tweaked (given civ4 coming up)...

	05-04-2005 05:44									#163
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 For the FFA game (if not for others), it's simple to just post the scenario file instead of the 'save' ... then the order can be tweaked by whomever starts the game (the first player, or some alternate person like Theseus). I strongly suggest tweaking it, however, especially for the FFA game but also for the regular; otherwise it won't finish in time. Look at games that are untweaked or poorly tweaked (can anyone say, "Team Game", Aqua? ) play sooooo much slower, 4-5 days between turns even on decent play schedules by each player, compared to 1 turn/day on a good turn rotation ... IE, the advantage (fast turn play) far outweighs the disadvantages (harder to set up, which it isn't really; and what's the comparison difficulty?). I don't think mosf of the games will finish if they're not order-tweaked (given civ4 coming up)...

OK, I'm not sure how that works exactly, but it sounds reasonable. Could the FFA players please indicate their best time slots so we can work out a schedule? I think the LA players are going to have to live with fixed order.

(Now if only Sir Ralph *or* BFM would respond about getting the map done! )

	05-04-2005 05:57									#164
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If we post it as a scenario file, anybody will be able to view the whole map. Not that I'm worried that much about cheaters, but just setting up the Iron Civer Scenario Tests, it was hard to work with the set-up screen and not see the map. We'd need a third person to do the set up.

Also, won't the start assignments be random using a scenario? If the tribes are starting in different locations, there isn't much point to using the same map and comparing *ARs.

BTW- I wouldn't mind switching tribes to get a better order, as long as I can veto two of them...

	05-04-2005 06:29									#165
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I agree with snoopy. The Team PBEM is hopelessly bogged down, probably due to poor selection of play order. My other team game however has progressed reasonably well, as we tried to keep to the usual east to west flow.

	05-04-2005 09:16									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D If we post it as a scenario file, anybody will be able to view the whole map. Not that I'm worried that much about cheaters, but just setting up the Iron Civer Scenario Tests, it was hard to work with the set-up screen and not see the map. We'd need a third person to do the set up. Also, won't the start assignments be random using a scenario? If the tribes are starting in different locations, there isn't much point to using the same map and comparing *ARs. BTW- I wouldn't mind switching tribes to get a better order, as long as I can veto two of them...

I'm totally confused... is there a way for the FFA game(s) to have designated/efficient turn order, and yet have the same start positions as in the LA games?

	05-04-2005 09:18									#167
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Friggin' six pages without starting... if we don;t get a map by tomorrow evening, I am going to drop out of play and do it myself.

	05-04-2005 09:29									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D If we post it as a scenario file, anybody will be able to view the whole map. Not that I'm worried that much about cheaters, but just setting up the Iron Civer Scenario Tests, it was hard to work with the set-up screen and not see the map. We'd need a third person to do the set up. Also, won't the start assignments be random using a scenario? If the tribes are starting in different locations, there isn't much point to using the same map and comparing *ARs. BTW- I wouldn't mind switching tribes to get a better order, as long as I can veto two of them...

You should still be able to set the starting locations. That's always possible, just not always done. You do that by manually placing the starting units when you create the map, rather than just placing starting locations...

I don't care whether you post the scenario or not - having a 3rd party administrator to set the admin password at least makes sense anyways.

And I guess i don't see the obsession with 'same map' and *ARs that the rest of you have. You can compare how a game goes without having exactly identical setups, or in this case just without having exactly identical civs in the identical starting locations. The game changes enough by 2900, who cares who started where? For a PBEM, you should be comparing how players reacted to the general game flow, which will ALWAYS be different, especially between the FFA and the LA games. (But that's just my way of thinking, i suspect. I'm never much for DARs or comparisons, anyways. I also like AP ... )

	05-04-2005 09:33									#169
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Order for the FFA game, I think:

Snoopy (evening ET) (CDT)
Swissy (late evening ET) (CDT?)
Platy Rex (later evening ET) (PDT)
Krill (mid-day ET) (GMT+1)
Aeson (aft to evening ET) (MDT)
Rommel (aft to evening ET) (CDT)

IS this logical? Aeson i'm not as sure about posting time, just making a guess, but he seems active enough.

Also could be

Snoopy or Rommel
Rommel or Snoopy
Platy
Krill
Swissy
Aeson

if Aeson prefers a slightly later playing time. I play pretty much the same general time as Rommel, >6pm EDT roughly, from what I recall, being before and after him in games and usually either way we both get turns done quickly (if i'm not busy with FG or work )

	05-04-2005 09:36									#170
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Further, if you don't like the nonrandom start locations, start an LA game first (with randomish start locations), and then see who gets what start location, and then manually place the FFA game (and any other LA game where you want to adjust starting order) in the same positions.

(I'm suggesting setting a settler and a worker, not a scout as that's automatic with Exp. and not part of the starting package, on the starting location; it 'owns' the starting location once a unit is put on it from its culture. Then cut the starting units in the scenario down to 0, and continue - it's just the same thing.)

	05-04-2005 09:39									#171
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quote: if we don;t get a map by tomorrow evening, I am going to drop out of play and do it myself.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then who will play with the me??
They'll probibly just leave me alone on one of those islands... "Fend for yourself Newb! Eep.

Just kidding... but seriously... .... I dont want it to come to that.

I have never done it before... (although I dont know how much skill is involved) BUT I would throw my hand up to make the map while dropping out if ya'll want. We'll all figure this out...

	05-04-2005 11:44									#172
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 And I guess i don't see the obsession with 'same map' and *ARs that the rest of you have. You can compare how a game goes without having exactly identical setups, or in this case just without having exactly identical civs in the identical starting locations. The game changes enough by 2900, who cares who started where? For a PBEM, you should be comparing how players reacted to the general game flow, which will ALWAYS be different, especially between the FFA and the LA games. (But that's just my way of thinking, i suspect. I'm never much for DARs or comparisons, anyways. I also like AP ... )

It's certainly not an obsession for me- I'll play regardless. It just seems like the only reasons for linking a number of games together is either if they are part of a larger tournament with mutiple rounds, or if the various games are being compared with action reports. What would any of the AU courses have been if the participants had not shared identical starting positions? Just general strategy discussions I'd think. The makeup of the map gives us a common reference to how players approach the game- a 'frame' to house the design that players set out to draw. Game flow is more meaningful if it stems from the same source.

	05-04-2005 11:52									#173
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Order for the FFA game, I think: Snoopy (evening ET) (CDT) Swissy (late evening ET) (CDT?) Platy Rex (later evening ET) (PDT) Krill (mid-day ET) (GMT+1) Aeson (aft to evening ET) (MDT) Rommel (aft to evening ET) (CDT)

FYI- I've been corrupted by Paddy and no longer have a structured play (work) schedule.

Also, I think this Daylight Savings Time is a bunch of hooey, so I'm not participating this year...

	05-04-2005 11:54									#174
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That's something I really didn't think of before signing up.

If you want to tweak the playtimes, it would be best to let someone with a more stable schedual take my slot. I can usually get playtime sometime in a 24h period (not always), but when varies drastically. To illustrate, within the past 2 weeks I have gone to sleep and woken up on virtually every hour on the clock.

I can keep up with slow PBEMs like the PTWDG, but I wouldn't want to keep everyone waiting.

	05-04-2005 12:35									#175
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Order for the FFA game, I think: Snoopy (evening ET) (CDT) Swissy (late evening ET) (CDT?) Platy Rex (later evening ET) (PDT) Krill (mid-day ET) (GMT+1) Aeson (aft to evening ET) (MDT) Rommel (aft to evening ET) (CDT) IS this logical? Aeson i'm not as sure about posting time, just making a guess, but he seems active enough. Also could be Snoopy or Rommel Rommel or Snoopy Platy Krill Swissy Aeson

This works for the Mighty Platypi

	05-04-2005 13:04									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I can keep up with slow PBEMs like the PTWDG, but I wouldn't want to keep everyone waiting.

A precise schedule can make for some super-quick PBEMs but isn't necessary. If you have 15 minutes two or three times a day, you can easily be among the fastest players. The Iron Civer had a 24 hour turn limit, and all four first-round games finished in a timely manner. If you can usually check for a turn when you get up, before going to bed, and maybe in the middle of the day sometimes, there will be no problems at all. Just as long as it doesn't slip by for 48 hours regularly. East-West time zones is the best default approach, but not the last word in scheduling.

	05-04-2005 13:27									#177
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Also could be Snoopy or Rommel Rommel or Snoopy Platy Krill Swissy Aeson

This is the default order (with Aeson on top), so we don't have a conflict for the FFA game, right?

	05-04-2005 19:20									#178
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OK, first thing, it turns out that both Sir Ralph and BFM are too tied up in real life to get this map done right away... thanks be to the Civ godz, vulture has volunteered, and says he can get it done tonight or tomorrow.

	05-04-2005 19:22									#179
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Here's what I've got for teams and play order:

	05-04-2005 19:23									#180
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Ooops, here is the pic:

Attachment: au602-first teams.jpg
This has been downloaded 70 time(s).