26-03-2005 17:47									#31
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These are all really good points that draw out some of the bigger issues here.

quote: Here in Australia at least, there's been controversey over the fact that sex offending priests have been ignored and moved around by the church, without any pressing of charges, let alone kicking them out. I would suggest kicking them out and telling the police would be very appropriate punishments. That's the law. It is not what they did for quite a while, until there was a media uproar about it. That's why I think trusting an institution such as the church, simply because it is the church, is not something to be done. It has a terrible past and its present is not that clean either.

First of all, priests are priests for life. Any discipline they face must take this into account. To kick them out is to deny their own ordination. Now, it is true that someone can choose to leave, but it is unnecessary to boot them out entirely in order to discipline them.

Secondly, who ought to have the authority to discipline these priests, the state, or their own ecclesial courts? I would argue the latter. If they state begins to intrude upon these matters, then it will invariably become ensnared upon issues pertaining the doctrine of the church.

I agree, I think more can be done, but I think what you propose has problems that you have not considered.

	26-03-2005 17:51									#32
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quote: I wouldn't mind if, at the very least, the all of the past popes were good people--I could 'forgive' it even if some cardinals or priests were terrible people. But, as has been stated, for too long the vatican had been a place where morals were preached of and utterly ignored. Thus the institution in my eyes has no moral standing. Perhaps the present pope, as a person, is good. Perhaps he is a good leader. That does not mean the next one will be, nor the one after that. Trusting an institution to interpret God's word when that institution has committed horrible deeds in the past seems unwise, at least to me.

As opposed to any other institution? Open your eyes! All are beset by the same problems, in the fact that they are managed by people, and that these people are not going to be perfect.

Why should there be one standard for the church, and an entirely different one for every other institution?

	26-03-2005 18:09									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico That's why I think trusting an institution such as the church

Er, who said anything about trusting the church?

That's what I mean - people have these incredibly naff ideas about catholics

	26-03-2005 19:09									#34
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Huh, I thought we weren't letting anymore in.

Last edited by DaShi on 26-03-2005 at 19:19

	26-03-2005 19:16									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I'm not sure how you define fundamentalism.

The belief that the Truth only comes from the Bible, which should be taken literally.

	26-03-2005 20:03									#36
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meh

does it really matter BK?

it's not as if you are going to be any different...

	26-03-2005 20:25									#37
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Congrats on finding something you are comfortable about having faith in... while many here might disagree with your choice, or religion in general... if you are happy, that's all that really matters.

	26-03-2005 22:26									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi First of all, if you believe that all Christians are called to be in unity with one another, the second question, is how can they be in unity. It doesn't make sense to me to answer this question other than to be in the Catholic church. Secondly, there is the issue of authority. All protestants will say that scripture ought to be the primary authority, but the truth is even with this, you rely upon tradition to help you interpret scripture. What the Catholic church says is that tradition and scripture are to be authoritative, not one as opposed to the other. This is something that really changed for me. Third, there is the teachings over communion. I had a hard time accepting what was true about communion, until I started looking at what I believed about certain passages, specifically where Christ talks about having to eat his bread and to drink his blood, and how this was a difficult teaching. It made much more sense to me to accept this as the literal truth, rather than to keep inserting the phrase, symbol into the sacrifice. It also opened my heart because of how different the Catholic mass is from protestant services, communion is the central part, not the sermon. Christ centred, not pastor centred. Other stuff too, apostolic succession and the communion of saints were ideas completely alien to me that now seem rather familiar.

Actually, the first protestant churches, the Lutheran and Anglican denominations, generally have all the features you're attributing solely to the Catholic church

	26-03-2005 22:34									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi as a protestant. So what should I do? My confirmation will be tonight at the Easter vigil, where I will be getting both confirmed and taking my first communion. I've been looking forward to this day for some time now, and working towards this over the last three years. I might not have been sure where I would end up, but I am happy with where this has taken me.

I thought you were going to say that you planning to off yourself, ( which I would care about) but this? There's not a lot of diff. Same story, different page.

	26-03-2005 22:35									#40
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Congrats, dude.

	26-03-2005 22:41									#41
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Welcome to the Faith.

	26-03-2005 22:46									#42
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Good for you, BK. I hope you haven't gotten hazed too much. Watch the paddles tonight...if you try to sit down too soon it doesn't feel good.

	26-03-2005 22:52									#43
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BK, best of luck. Now you just need to find a nice Catholic girl, and then oh heck you get the picture.

	27-03-2005 00:02									#44
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Father riley and various party goers:
Catholic girls
With a tiny little mustache
Catholic girls
Do you know how they go?
Catholic girls
In the rectory basement
Father riley’s a fairy
But it don’t bother mary
Catholic girls
At the cyo
Catholic girls
Do you know how they go?
Catholic girls
There can be no replacement
How do they go, after the show?

Joe:
All the way
That’s the way they go
Every day
And none of their mamas ever seem to know
Hip-hip-hooray
For all the class they show
There’s nothing like a catholic girl
At the cyo
When they learn to blow...

Father riley:
They’re learning to blow
All the catholic boys!

Mary:
Warren cuccurullo...

Father riley:
Catholic boys!

Mary:
Kinda young, kinda wow!

Father riley:
Catholic boys!

Mary:
Vinnie colaiuta...

Chorus:
Where are they now?
Did they all take the vow?

Father riley:
Catholic girls

Warren:
Carmenita scarfone!

Father riley:
Catholic girls

Officer butzis:
Hey! she gave me vd!

Father riley:
Catholic girls!

Warren:
Toni carbone!

Chorus:
With a tongue like a cow
She could make you go wow!

Joe:
Vd vowdy vootie
Right away
That’s the way they go
Every day
Whenever their mamas take them to a show
Matinee
Pass the popcorn please
There’s nothing like a catholic girl
With her hand in the box
When she’s on her knees

Larry:
She was on her knees,
My little catholic girl

Chorus:
In a little white dress
Catholic girls
They never confess
Catholic girls
I got one for a cousin
I love how they go
So send me a dozen
Catholic girls
Ooooooh!
Catholic girls
Ooooooh!
(etc.)

Central scrutinizer:
This is the central scrutinizer...
Joe had a girl friend named mary.
She used to go the church club every week.
They’d meet each other there
Hold hands
And think pure thoughts
But one night at the social club meeting
Mary didn’t show up...
She was performing the hoover backstage at the armory
In order to get a pass
To see some big rock group for free...

	27-03-2005 00:04									#45
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I always find it entertaing how one whole relegion is judged soley on a few bad apples. These priests actions were not good and should be punished but to punish the whole relegion for that. I dont get it. I dont practice my relegion which indeed is catholic but have been raised in this faith all my life.
More positive note good luck ben I hope you find more then you are seeking with this.

	27-03-2005 00:33									#46
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Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Why is it that priests are priests for life? I hope and go by the assumption that modern popes are good people. A religion, if it believes it is true, should have a different standard than other institutions. Just because true christians are supposed to be unified, does not mean that those who claim a belief in Christ are. We are to become one. it is a process. If you lack wisdom, ask God (James 1:5). They that be whole need not a church, but the sick. I know there are good people who are Catholic, as with any church on the earth or practically any religion. The church of the devil is not any specific church on the earth.

By the way, what ever happened to the Jedi Order?

	27-03-2005 00:46									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski I always find it entertaing how one whole relegion is judged soley on a few bad apples. These priests actions were not good and should be punished but to punish the whole relegion for that. I dont get it. I dont practice my relegion which indeed is catholic but have been raised in this faith all my life. More positive note good luck ben I hope you find more then you are seeking with this.

these guys are hopeless, they keep living in the past.

Sure the church has done some bad things in the past. But everyone did bad things back then. The world was a horrible and savage place.

The only thing that upsets me is the church's stance on family planning/condoms etc. (and of course covering up for molesters)

	27-03-2005 00:53									#48
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Everyone did bad things back then because the pure truth was not on the earth at that time. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Amos 8:11.

	27-03-2005 01:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Brent Everyone did bad things back then because the pure truth was not on the earth at that time. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Amos 8:11.

I am a little concerned with your timeline here.

	27-03-2005 02:01									#50
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Most important is there such a thing by pure truth. From what I have learned we believe the bible is the truth but nobody can prove it right or wrong.

	27-03-2005 03:33									#51
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quote: Actually, the first protestant churches, the Lutheran and Anglican denominations, generally have all the features you're attributing solely to the Catholic church

As poor imitations. Their heirarchy doesn't work the same way, and gives much more authority to the local congregations.

	27-03-2005 03:40									#52
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Start a thread when you convert to Christianity

	27-03-2005 03:42									#53
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@ M. Webster

	27-03-2005 03:42									#54
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Ben,

Did you never read Dante?

	27-03-2005 03:43									#55
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quote: Start a thread when you convert to Christianity

shouldn't that be convert back?

	27-03-2005 03:44									#56
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Plato:

My education is lacking in the classics.

	27-03-2005 03:48									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Plato: My education is lacking in the classics.

Dante exposed many of the ills of the Catholic church in a rather captivating journey through hell. He was branded a heretic and ex-communicated. History is literally littered with reasons to "protest" the Catholic church.

That being said, what was it that particularly captivated you to make the switch?

	27-03-2005 04:04									#58
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quote: shouldn't that be convert back?

cant we all just get along?

	27-03-2005 04:14									#59
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How long before he commits a mortal sin?

	27-03-2005 04:35									#60
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Good luck Ben, and welcome to the fold

I'm a non-practicing Catholic, but as I've always said... if you're going to be a Christian, you may as well be a Catholic.

Catholocism is steeped in ritual, symbolism, ornamentary and hierarchy, something that non-Catholics hate us for. They say its too worldly, and that all you need is God and Jesus, not some fancy church and a bunch of rituals. But they make one mistaken assumption - that God actually exists! What is a religion without rituals, symbols and all other kinds of worldy crap? Nothing! At least Catholics address this and fill in the empty space.

Plus, the religion has changed alot. Back in the day a Catholic church goer would have essentially been put into a trance like state throughout the mass... having it culminate in consuming the body and blood of christ - essentially assuming the role of Jesus and taking on his qualities. And under such an altered mental state, you literally would have. This is a essense of Christianity... something that Protestants have completely veered from. They just bible thump now, like they always have.