27-03-2005 15:11									#61
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Schrodingers Cat Paradox. A physicist takes the cat, and places it in the box with the atomically just-unstable enough isotope, the detector, and the poison gas. He closes the box. A student of his, who is a member of PETA, reports him to the local animal control officer, who then arrests him and confiscates the experiment, citing his cruelty to the cat. The cat, a large unadoptable male, then goes to the local humane shelter, where it is euthanized. Thus the atom must have decayed, becasue the cat is dead. (The professor gets fired afterwards for this cruelty to animals and not having gotten approval for the experiment from the review board at the univsesity).

	27-03-2005 17:04									#62
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Schrodingers Cat Paradox version III. A physicist decides to repeat Schrodinger's experiment. He brings it to the departmental review board, which being all physicists has no problem. It gets booted up to the experimental review board for the College of Science, and the s**t hits the fan.

Torture of the poor cat. Unnecessary cruelty. He quickly retrenches. Instead of killing the cat, the cat gets fed a treat. The cat is put in the perfect kitty environment, with 100 square feet to roam in. The isotope emitter is heavily shielded behind a special lead divider that guarantees no risk to the poor *****.

A grant application is written. It is rejected by the National Academy of Sciences. The researcher's dad contributed to the local congressman, who happens to be Republican and who has a wife who loves cats (and loves the kitty apartment plans). A grant is inserted into the next appropriations bill, and suddenly the physicist finds himself with one million dollars.

He set up the experiment, and then goes on a drinking binge to celebrate that he has brought so much money into the deparment that his Ph.D. is now guaranteed. Plus he's getting a f**king huge stipend. While drunk, he hangs out the window too far and falls five stories.

The atom did not decay, because the physicist dies.

	27-03-2005 20:25									#63
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Shawn:

	27-03-2005 21:44									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I get the impression that no-one in physics is intelligent enough to work out the implications, therefore they try to hush up their ignorance with "shut up and calculate" crap.

Isn't it Feynman who said you should not interpret Quantum Physics philosophically? He's a heck more brilliant than you, Stew.

	28-03-2005 00:51									#65
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Yes, it was Feynman.

	28-03-2005 03:37									#66
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It's both. It's more standard to do the problem from wave mechanical sense, but you can also create an observable (left slit or right slit). If you put the path into an eigenstate of the observable (if it travels through a definite slit) there should be no interference as the electron will propagate as a particle from a fixed point (left slit, say) and you will end up with two peaks and no interference pattern. This is observed when you put a detector on the slits to tell you if the particle has gone through (you perform a measurement on the observable left slit/right slit, which puts you into an eigenstate). There is no local hidden variable interpretation available right now which is consistent with all experimental results...

Hidden variable seems nicer to me.

	28-03-2005 03:38									#67
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Unfortunately it doesn't work, dude.

Stop whining and accept the evidence...

	28-03-2005 03:43									#68
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quote: Unfortunately it doesn't work, dude. Stop whining and accept the evidence...

Evidence that "what", exactly?

	28-03-2005 03:49									#69
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That particles do not carry a so-called hidden variable around with them that will tell them ahead of time what value of quantum observables to display to an observer.

a) there's no experimental reason as yet to postulate the existence of additional variables

b) the naive hidden variable approach ends up contradicting fundamental quantum results (as I've demonstrated here)

c) even slightly more clever hidden variable theories (like the one that was proposed by Einstein et al) have been disproven by use of Bell's theorem and the associated experimental evidence

	28-03-2005 04:07									#70
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however, a true explanation,l fully describing the phenomenae and results that quantum mechanics predict very well hasn't been established... If we'll look at statistical mechanics as a whole, the statistical predictions are very correct, but go hand in hand with a deterministic model, really.

	28-03-2005 04:09									#71
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quote: however, a true explanation,l fully describing the phenomenae and results that quantum mechanics predict very well hasn't been established

yes it has

quote: If we'll look at statistical mechanics as a whole, the statistical predictions are very correct, but go hand in hand with a deterministic model, really

Quantum mechanics is different from statistical mechanics. Why are you attempting to state without evidence that a deterministic model is necessary?

	28-03-2005 04:14									#72
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You appear to be operating under the axiom that our universe is deterministic and that any theory which is not deterministic is incomplete.

Why is this, other than some silly discomfort?

Do you have any evidence to back you up? Can you provide a self-consistent theory which is deterministic and yet fits with the enormous body of experimental evidence we've collected on the subject?

	28-03-2005 04:18									#73
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Determinism is dead. It has been for 60 years. I'm not willing to revive it unless you can show me why I should...

	28-03-2005 04:28									#74
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Bell's theorem is like the physics equivalent of Godel's theorem...

	28-03-2005 04:30									#75
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quote: You appear to be operating under the axiom that our universe is deterministic and that any theory which is not deterministic is incomplete. Why is this, other than some silly discomfort? Do you have any evidence to back you up? Can you provide a self-consistent theory which is deterministic and yet fits with the enormous body of experimental evidence we've collected on the subject?

eh? I never said that the universe is necessarily deterministic ( though it does converge to the determinstic on the macroscopic level ). I just think usually, a statistical model is used for things we don't know the exact mechanism of, or don't want/need to know.

I think that we should keep an open mind about it all.

After all, shroedinger's cat isn't really in a state of uncertainty, it's only that we don't know what it's state is.

	28-03-2005 04:38									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel eh? I never said that the universe is necessarily deterministic ( though it does converge to the determinstic on the macroscopic level ). I just think usually, a statistical model is used for things we don't know the exact mechanism of, or don't want/need to know.

What the **** are you on about?

If our universe is non-deterministic then by definition there are some results which are only possible to predict by way of probabilities.

	28-03-2005 04:47									#77
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Quantum mechanics is not a statistical theory. It is a probabilistic theory. There is an enormous difference.

	28-03-2005 04:48									#78
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I never have understood what principle that cat demonstrates, or why said principle required such a long and complicated example to demonstrate it. You'd think that, if the principle were prevalent enough in nature to require that it be understood by anyone, there would be more common examples available to illustrate it than a demented possible-euthanasia schematic.

	28-03-2005 04:49									#79
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E = MC Striker

	28-03-2005 05:02									#80
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Unfortunately it doesn't work, dude. Stop whining and accept the evidence...

What's wrong with just looking at it as a set of statistical choices. I mean...I guess I don't know the evidence.

	28-03-2005 05:04									#81
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That particles do not carry a so-called hidden variable around with them that will tell them ahead of time what value of quantum observables to display to an observer. a) there's no experimental reason as yet to postulate the existence of additional variables b) the naive hidden variable approach ends up contradicting fundamental quantum results (as I've demonstrated here) c) even slightly more clever hidden variable theories (like the one that was proposed by Einstein et al) have been disproven by use of Bell's theorem and the associated experimental evidence

RE b and c, I don't know the evidence. Re intro and a: It's not that they carry around info of what face to present. Just that they are in that state according to a likelihood.

	28-03-2005 05:04									#82
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YOU PRANCE AROUND IN YOUR FAGGETY WHITE LITTLE UNIFORM!!!


YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE EVIDENCE!!!!!!!!!

	28-03-2005 05:08									#83
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: however, a true explanation,l fully describing the phenomenae and results that quantum mechanics predict very well hasn't been established yes it has quote: If we'll look at statistical mechanics as a whole, the statistical predictions are very correct, but go hand in hand with a deterministic model, really Quantum mechanics is different from statistical mechanics. Why are you attempting to state without evidence that a deterministic model is necessary?

It's not nesesary and he didn't state that it was. Just that it fit fine.

	28-03-2005 05:08									#84
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Determinism is dead. It has been for 60 years. I'm not willing to revive it unless you can show me why I should...

please. Do it for me.

	28-03-2005 05:09									#85
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Attachment: jack.jpg
This has been downloaded 54 time(s).

	28-03-2005 05:11									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker YOU PRANCE AROUND IN YOUR FAGGETY WHITE LITTLE UNIFORM!!! YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE EVIDENCE!!!!!!!!!

DID YOU ORDER THE CODE RED!!!

	28-03-2005 05:13									#87
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YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT I ORDERED THE CODE RED!!!!!!


*spit coming out of mouth*

	28-03-2005 05:14									#88
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you dropped your hat...

	28-03-2005 05:15									#89
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If a propagating single electron had a definite position at all times (and this position was merely not known to us) then how could it could interfere with itself in a double-slit experiment?

	28-03-2005 05:16									#90
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quote: Originally posted by TCO It's not nesesary and he didn't state that it was. Just that it fit fine.

No it doesn't....

Trust me, physicists didn't drop the deterministic view without a fight.