28-03-2005 21:27									#1
	Yet another complaint of CivAI Get a bigger avatar today!

Yes, I hate to complain of the CIV3 AI, but I feel that I must make my feelings known.

I miss the destructive AI. I am a long-time Veteran of PLANET, Alpha Centauri. I remember (eons ago now) when I could find another continent where the AI had been ravaged and warring, destroying itself and sometimes conquering one another.

I *NEVER* EVER see the popup that tells me that one Civ has destroyed another Civ if I didnt create the war. I *ALWAYS* find every Civ that started the game happilyly coexisting together.

If I as a player and civ create early conquests of my neighbors, why doesnt the AI civs? Why does the aggressive levels in the editor and settings do nothing to bring Civs down by themselves? Why are KAIs only spawned by Human players? Am I the only one who misses the Hive and Believer's grab at World Domination?

Is there ANY WAY to bring this blood thirst back to the AI?

Thank you all.

	28-03-2005 23:28									#2
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Which version of the game are you playing? If it's stock C3, then you might want to consider a higher level or perhaps springing for Conquests. It's well worth the money if you ask me. KAIs nearly always pop up in my games, even with aggressiveness turned down

I actually am playing a C3C build style game as the Mayans. I didn't feel like working too hard at it, so I turned the AI aggressiveness down. By the time I had explored the world, the Incans had completely conquered the main continent, leaving 3-4 mid size islands and a few specks of land for the other civs. The Incans are now a full third bigger than me and it looks like they'll conquer most of the rest of the world by the time I get my space victory.

	28-03-2005 23:50									#3
	Re: Yet another complaint of CivAI Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by theDragon Is there ANY WAY to bring this blood thirst back to the AI?

Play bigger maps. The more civs you have, the bigger the chance of one getting a really bad start and dying because of this. In fact, a modded huge map with 31 civs is almost guaranteed to generate "X has been destroyed" messages.

Play pangeas. With easy access, the AIs will have a go at each other more often and more efficient.

Get contacts ASAP. It seems that the civs you do not know tend do stay peaceful much more than the ones you have met.

	28-03-2005 23:58									#4
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In C3C, try increasing the AI Aggressivness in the Game Setup screen.

It's true the AIs do not kill each other as efficiently as the player does. But that's to be expected.

	29-03-2005 00:42									#5
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I see it more than I would like. I try to prevent this for the most part as I would rather not see too many KAI's.

Well I like it when some civ is down to 1 or 2 island towns, but watch out you may get what you ask for and not like it.

	29-03-2005 02:35									#6
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I put a lot of study time into the generation of KAIs some time back. In general, you want dramatic variations in the quality of initial terrain/resources. Here are my recommendations for set-ups:
* Large and huge maps.
* One fewer than the max number of AI civs.
* Continents, 70% water, wet, warm, 3B. Raging barbs.
* Most aggressive. Emperor or higher.

(I have some spreadsheets on this, if you'd like.)

As alluded to in previous posts, what this supports is a rich-get-richer and poor-get-poorer cycle for the AI civs.

Further, the faster all the AI civs know each other, and the more that your own early aggression spawns a general focus on things military for all, the more likely it is that one or more of the 'blessed' AI civs will go on the hunt, and become a KAI.

	29-03-2005 03:48									#7
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this may be a stupid question, but what is KAI?

	29-03-2005 04:00									#8
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Killer AI. This is more common on contients. One gets an early GA and busts its neighbor and starts to get real large. It does not alway need a GA, but once it get larger it tends to take all the land as it gets all the techs first or at least before any other AI.

You start to get shut out of any tech trades and only the KAI has money and you have nothing to offer it. Well maybe luxs, but you do not want to give those to a runaway KAI.

	29-03-2005 04:12									#9
	Remove this text

I see it occasionally. Usually when the AI builds Statue of Zues or the wonder that produces crusaders. This gives one AI a huge military advantage over the other and allows them to conquer them. Occasionally their surges peter out, but about half the time they are able to conquer at least one nation with these wonders.

	29-03-2005 04:26									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Theseus, a KAI does not guarantee the early extinction of other AIs. Sure, they start eating neighbours around the end of the Medieval age, but seldom before that. If you do not help actively (i.e. incite "hole world vs small guy" type of wars), you need to actually increase the number of civs, to see some disappear early on. Yes, it does make for less KAIs and thus - an easier game overall.

	29-03-2005 04:27									#11
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I see it on continents maps a good bit. Typically, continents serves to isolate a potential KAI from the human and still give it plenty of other AIs off of which to feed.

	29-03-2005 22:16									#12
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YES I am using C3C and I just got it maybe two months ago now, and I have fully fallen back in love with Civ. I played Vanilla for a long time (prolly a year) and finally took a gulp of air and upgraded to Conquests.

However, there are many things I miss from my days upon Alpha Centauri, and this one is a big one for me. Its just something that bugs me when I finally get a world map and see everyone peacefully sitting around and neatly in their own borders.

I am still playing on the first three diffculty levels... mostly because of utter fear but as I was reading your post, it occured to me that most of you guys are the big sluggers here at Apolyton, so its safe to say that you play higher levels, so perhaps that is why I am not seeing the things you are talking about...

Perhaps I will break out of the first tier of play

Now that I think of it, I was stupid..... DUH! I am going to start some harder levels of the game, I am certain thats where the KAIs live. I just hope I can survive all the harder aspects! LOL

Thanks a lot you guys... The thread and your responses have been very helpful. Now.. I must be off to clash with a few KAIs!

	29-03-2005 23:55									#13
	Put an end to popups!

Have fun and yes I would not expect to see much in the way KAI's at Regent. You would need to get some what isolated and not take advantage of your empire.

I do not recall many on Monarch either. You would have a chance on Emperor, with the right start locations. Monarch is the first level the AI gets some boost. Below are the MOn and Emp values.

Bonuses
Def Land Units - 2 4
Off Land Units - 1 2
Start unit type 1 - 0 0
Start unit type 2 - 0 1
Extra free support - 4 8
Bonus for each city - 1 2
Max gov transition - 4 3
Cost factor - 9 8
AI to AI trade - 140 150

Other variables
Citizens born content - 2 1
Attack bonus vs barbs - 100 50
Percent optimal cities - 85 80

	30-03-2005 00:10									#14
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For all lower levels than Monarch the value is zero up till the cost factor. The cost factor goes 20 12 10 in the first three levels so at the first two levels the player is getting a bonus. At Monarch it is 9/10's so th e AI has a 10% boost.

This cost applies to shields, growth and research. The other item that may not be clear is the barb attack. It starts at 800 for Chief, so the babs are getting tougher and tougher till at deity and sid you have zero bonus. This tends to mean that barbs kill warriors and horse more often and even swords are not a lock at sid.

So you can see how it is not so easy to get a KAI below emperor, if you get a fair start and play well (not great, just decent).

Oh note that the starting units depend on the traits, so you can see Germany start with archers and spears, instead of warriors as they have the tech. This makes them hard to rush out of the box at emperor or better.

	30-03-2005 02:04									#15
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That's why a continents map is so important on Monarch, v. With a decision not to leave your own continent before marines (and on a huge map, that's not a bad decision, as you'll have plenty of work to do between capturing your whole continent and the advent of marines), the premiere AI on the other continent gets what amounts to a free pass from the player. The AI still isn't always aggressive enough on Monarch, though, so a few fostered wars and judicious trades can go a long way toward creating a KAI, without adversely affecting your own development.

	30-03-2005 03:00									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by theDragon YES I am using C3C and I just got it maybe two months ago now, and I have fully fallen back in love with Civ. I played Vanilla for a long time (prolly a year) and finally took a gulp of air and upgraded to Conquests. However, there are many things I miss from my days upon Alpha Centauri, and this one is a big one for me. Its just something that bugs me when I finally get a world map and see everyone peacefully sitting around and neatly in their own borders. I am still playing on the first three diffculty levels... mostly because of utter fear but as I was reading your post, it occured to me that most of you guys are the big sluggers here at Apolyton, so its safe to say that you play higher levels, so perhaps that is why I am not seeing the things you are talking about... Perhaps I will break out of the first tier of play Now that I think of it, I was stupid..... DUH! I am going to start some harder levels of the game, I am certain thats where the KAIs live. I just hope I can survive all the harder aspects! LOL Thanks a lot you guys... The thread and your responses have been very helpful. Now.. I must be off to clash with a few KAIs!

not all of us play on the higher levels. I still play on monarch. I doubt I'll go any higher. It just doesn't seem fun for me.

and like I said, i do see killer AI's. It's usually when the build the wonders that give them free units. This gives one a serious advantage over the other and help tip the balance.

Without these wonders, most AI wars seem to go back and forth, though occasionally one will break out and begin a slow accumulation of bases.

	30-03-2005 03:00									#17
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Yes more water between you and the other landmass, the better the chances for someone to get big. But often you will see most of the civs on that mass staying in equilibrium with each other.

It is not until Industrial Age that you see break outs, unless one civ has a big advantage. Like extra resources and luxs tied to a UU that comes no later than Middle Ages.

So if the games is a Monarch level and no KAI pops before Calvs, the human will probably manage to get on the landmass and contain any breakouts. Well solid players anyway.

So what I see is that KAI's are not very common until Emperor, not non existing, just not common. As always the map will be the determining factor.

	30-03-2005 03:08									#18
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BTW as I mentioned you want to be careful about asking for something and getting it. The last KAI that comes to my mind was a game I posted here about a year ago. It was a contients Sid map and I had only played a few island maps on sid at that point.

The KAI took over a huge contient and what that did was not to hurt me from the stand point that I could take it out, but it killed the brake on culture. I mean one of the civs had enough culture to prevent the KAI from winning, while I was climbing up the ladder. When the KAI snuffed the other civ out, the game ended, just as I was on the move.

I thought I was going to win my first contients Sid game, but the rug was pulled out. So again you may not want what you ask for.

	30-03-2005 06:26									#19
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Ouch! But then, I keep cultural victories disabled, a relic from my Regent and Warlord days.

I think I remember you posting about that, btw.

On your previous post, true, though I think that also illuminates the difference between a player wanting to contain potential KAI's and one wanting to pull a Theseus, and foster one for a great showdown at the end.