29-03-2005 00:47									#1
	How to Win at Fall of Rome Increase the size of your Attachments

Since there is a similar Rise of Rome thread, I'd thought I'd start a Fall of Rome one for completeness sake.

City Placement & REX:

As the Huns : You have plenty of starting nomads without the need to ever build any more [Monarch level], IF you place them properly. I'd sugest that all sites be along the river and have bonsues, with the possible exception of one near the Iron. (Alternatively, a worker could form a colony there if culture doesn't expand rapdially enough)

As the Celts: You have a good start on cities and free workers for each of them, but could use about double that to fill in Ireland and some empty spots in England. So build one nomad as the first build in all cities. Transport the ones from Scotland into some of the larger empty spots in England, and also transport one from Ireland into another empty spot in England. Have the rest of the Ireland ones fill out Ireland. No real need for any additional cities built on Monarch level, athough it would be benifital to do so once you capture Londonium

As the Sassidends: I wouldn't recomend building any new cities at this point as them unless there's a unique luxary nearby. AI Huns normally starts exploring in your direction right away. Concentrate on building units instead from turn 1.

As the germanic ones: You could definately use more nomads initally than they have.

Tech reserach path:

Non-Sassidens:

1. Beeline to the tech allowing the Scourage of God followed by the one allowing you to build Warlords.

2. Trade for the rest of the techs with barb tribes as they research and/or trade from Rome and Sass for them.

3. After completing the barb portion, might as well turn reserach completely off until you trigure your GA to save money for other things.

4. Don't be afraid to give the barbs a good deal with these techs.

5. One scientist exploit does not work. The max time to research a tech in this Conquest is at least 168 turns.

6. There are several techs that the Sasiden / Roman AIs will sell you that you can never buy or sell to/from the other barbs. However, the Sasidens / Roman AIs will praticly give them away from free in trade. It has to do with flavors, and has also been noticed in Middle Ages.

Sassidens:

1. Beeline into the "Rome Strikes Back" era.

2. Do NOT be like the AI that reseraches and switches to Imperalism. Confirmed in 1.22 that this bug still exists, and Imperalism is also confirmed to be tradable in 1.22 as well.

Post Rex:
As the barbs the only useful city builds are:

1. Harbors (Celts only) : 2 to connect Ireland to Scotland + some of the city sites could use them.

2. Baracks. DUH!

3. Temples : Culture and maintiagn order.

4. Market Places in the size 5+ ones: But ensure you have enough units being built.

5. Court Houses: In a few of the size 5+ cities suffering the most from corrutpion.

6. Scourage of God Great Wonder. Start it in your best shield production city.

7. Aquaduct. cities stuck at size 6 only. Going to be a long time before getting this tech anyway.

Contacts:

As the Barbs generally don't buy contacts. AI will sell the contact with you to the other party if you don't buy it, so theres no need to waste your money. (And both Romes & Sass start with the Communications trading tech so there's not much money to be had doing this.)

Military Alliances & Embassys:
The following civs are most diserable to form MA with against Romes:

1. Celts
2. Franks
3. The purple germanic civ.
4. Sassidens

So this is 4 embassys you absolutely need. (3 if playing one of them)

It's also important to sign the MA against the right version of Rome, so wait for the other half of Rome to declare war on you before asking for help against it. You don't have long to wait at all. If really dispearte, declare war on both romes the same turn.

You really have no choice but to rely upon the other barbs to help with sacking the half of rome your not nearest to initally. (Unless playing the purple germanic civ which is near them both.)

But you should be ready to sack enough of the Roman towns on your half to knock them out without help.

Timing: Time it so that your in the GA during a significant part of the build to the Scourage of God. And if Rome asks for a bribe early, don't give in and start the war then.

Iron Use: Don't connect until a few turns before completion of the tech allowing War Lords. This allows a horde of Raiders which can be upgraded at 120 gold each, which after you turn research off can be done.

Initally 1 Warlord and a stack of 3 Raiders is sufficent to sack a smaller city.
Rome doesn't have that many Legions (4/4/1), and instead all full of the great defender called the Roman Garrsion. (A 1-2-1 unit)

Capturing vs Sacking to the ground:
Only capture a city that's directly continous to your own empire so that it's easily defended. There is no option to change your mind in an elimination mode game. Don't be like the AI that is credited to multiple city loses due to swapping a city back and forth.

On a similar topic be carefull about founding cities. Note that you don't need a city to earn the VPs. Just place a unit there instead, and if a rival civ plants a city near there, they'd be a good target.

Additional info for Celts:

The Curraghs can be upgraded to Galleys, which may be helpful against West Rome.

Additional info for Huns:

You start with a lot of Horsemen which match the speed of your Nomads and also make excelent explorers. These horsemen can be upgraded to Heavy Calvary , but the game is probably over by then.

Palace note:

Note for those civs that start with no cities and multiple nomad that the very first nomad you build will determine your palace, so choose wisely.

Also note that there is NO Forbidden Palace small wonder in this conquest.

Last edited by joncnunn on 27-05-2005 at 02:41

	29-03-2005 02:14									#2
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Difficultly range:

Easyist to Hardest:

Probably not intended for play due to being in realtively secure positions.

1. Huns : one full difficully level easier than base

2. Celts : 1/2 difficulty level easier than base. (I do note that the AI fails to see the value off this secure position because they build useless cities on the mainland making it possible to wipe them out without a sea invasion.)

Most of the Civs:

3. Franks: 1/4 difficulty level easier than base
4. Anglo-Saxens: Base
5. Vandals : 1/4 difficulty level harder than base [somewhat behind the other barbs]
6. Purple civ: 1/2 difficulty level harder than base [in this case being easily accessible to both halves of Rome at the same time isn't good, and kind of hemed in by other barbs behind them]
7. The one nearest the Huns: 2/3 difficulty level harder than base [nearest the Huns and also behind the purple civ]

Probably Not intended to play due to being more difficult than normal:

8. Sassidens: 1 full difficultly level harder than base. (Lack of Barb units, and inital barb tech can't be traded) AI is observed to be even worst by poor tech research & govt choices. [reseraching Imperalism which is tradable and actually switching to it ]

And the ones marked as non-playable without a mod:

Both Romes (Rome Eternal): 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 difficulty levels easier than base in the hands of a compenant human. (e.g. attacking and wiping out the nearby barb tribes BEFORE they get better Maruders and War lords. And also bribing barbs into fighting each other. Also includes specalists in corrupt cities for income & science.)

	29-03-2005 02:40									#3
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Fall of Rome specific definations:

barb(s) : any civ other than both halves of Rome and the Sassideans.

minor barbs: Those units that spotinously form. e.g. what is considered in epic games & all other Conquests "barbs"

civilized civ: Both halves of Rome & the Sassidens

germanic civ: Any civ other than civilized civs, the huns, and the Celts.

	29-03-2005 03:34									#4
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Good thread, jon.

I've played this one once, as the Anglo-Saxons. Even with my limited exposure, the barb research path you outlined is exactly what struck me as best from the start. As someone (might have been you) said elsewhere, this scenario is about the barb tribes and the warlord unit. For that reason, I recommend not playing the Sassanids until you've done it at least once as a barb tribe. If playing the Sassanids, though, word is barbarism can be stolen.

Btw, the purple tribe is the Visigoths, and the one between them and the Huns is the Ostrogoths.

The Anglo-Saxons start off in a pretty good position, overall. They're buffered to the south (i.e., from Western Rome) by the Franks and to the east (i.e., from the Huns/Eastern Rome) by the Vandals. This allowed me to do all my fighting on Roman territory, thereby not risking my cities. You can snag Londinium before the AI Celts get to it pretty easily, and with an ROP/Alliance vs. Western Rome with the Franks, you can flood Western Rome with your troops. When the Romans finally get some legions together for counterattack, they hit the Franks, and never make it to your territory. Same goes for the Vandals/Visigoths against Eastern Rome.

Found a few cities at the beginning to grab just enough of a territorial base to raise your army, and don't be afraid to found a city for a unique luxury or resource, but this is one scenario where you need not be afraid of open space. Never found more cities than you can defend, since all it takes is 8 cities falling and you're out of it.

There is one other situaton where I'll keep a city. While fighting Eastern Rome far away from my own empire, I popped a leader. Rather than waste him, I kept the city in order to form an army. If you do keep one in a situation like this, starve it down ASAP, because any of the civilized civs is going to have an overwhelming overall culture advantage on you, and a flip is a real risk. Of course, this opens up the exploit possibility of holding it long enough to form the army, then evacuating the city and waiting for it to flip, so you can have it count toward the 8 city limit twice. It's better to get your own migrant there and refound, if you absolutely need a city, but that's not always going to be timely.

Note also that galleys can be upgraded to dromons (free upgrade) with the discovery of Byzantine Ingenuity. This is a tech the AI, the Sassanids in my game, doesn't mind trading.

When you're fighting either Rome, btw, and you can tell that they're on the verge of collapse, go ahead and be sending a unit or two toward each victory location that's about to be empty.

Also, ROPs can be very useful in this game. As I said earlier, the traditional use comes in handy, but consider also what happened in my game at Londinium. I had a unit sitting on the monolith and the Celts founded a city one tile away. I simply made an ROP with them, kept it going the entire game, and never left the VP location. OTOH, when the Franks beat me to Milan after the collapse of the West, I founded a city a tile away, waited for our ROP to expire, ended it and demanded they leave or declare. They left, and I felt a little dirty .

	29-03-2005 03:37									#5
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Meant to add that I also agree on the city builds. A funny thing happened with free unit support. I found myself, who rarely ever builds defenders in the epic game, pumping out enough spearmen to have at least one in every city, in addition to the considerable force of heavy cavs and warlords I was assembling. This, incidentally, also made me feel a lot better about signing ROPs in the game, as I had no undefended cities for the AI to wander by and decide to take.

	29-03-2005 04:35									#6
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On spearmen, I build those after connecting the iron to use as MP.

With most barb civs having very few luxary resources nearby other than Fur, MP is more needed than normal.
And being at war also helps too. (functions as an extra luxary.)
As the Huns, evenually I did get a lot of luxaries, but that was only after E Rome, Sassidens, and W Rome had all already collapsed so I was well on my way of winning.

Yes, I'm aware of the upgarde to Dromons, didn't realize it was free, but since it's a "Rome strikes back tech" it's rather late; I really think the Celts need to arrange Western Rome's collapse by then. And after Western Rome is gone, I'm not sure how much need there is for Dromons, there's enough starting Eastern Rome cities to arrange their collapsing without crossing the Mediteritain. (Even without the romes building more cities)

On Angle-Saxons position, that's why I placed them where I did.

( I like Franks marginally better though, more open space, particlarly west. While I definately don't call for anyone to go overboard REXing in FoR, that additional open space may have better city sites.)

	29-03-2005 05:55									#7
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Very true on the dromons (same shield cost as galley, btw, which is why it's free). I was only really able to use them scouting the Med and coast of Spain for Eastern Roman ships heading my way, though I did manage to grab the Carthage VP location (after WR's collapse) with a couple of warlords aboard a dromon, not that a galley would have been any worse for that purpose.

I forgot about the MP duty, but you're right, that was another impetus for sliding them into the build queues here and there. It's a blessing when Rome comes demanding tribute, to be sure.

The Franks certainly have some nice space into which to expand. I may have to try them in the near future. My only reservation is, as said above, the lack of a buffer between you and the legions. I imagine that's much less of a problem in human hands, though.

	29-03-2005 14:25									#8
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I played this once as the Sassanids, I think on Emperor. It seems to me there is no harm in making many new cities, especially in the extremely fertile Persian land (lots of bonus food). The other barbarians destroyed Western Rome, while I took on Eastern Rome. It turned out to be pretty easy, even with cities built up much more than what Jon suggests. Of course the game lasted longer because of the builder orgy.

	29-03-2005 15:15									#9
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Having not played as them (so take this with a grain of salt), I'd imagine building cities up more falls more in line with a conventional play-style, as the Sassanids look to call for. This as opposed to the barbarian tribes, where it really is all about what units you can put on the ground and how fast you can put them there, and basically, how quickly you can deploy warlords. Your expandable territory is also rather sheltered as the Sassanids, comparatively, at least. You've got the Caspian in the north giving you only two avenues to watch for Huns, and should be able to close down the Eastern Roman frontier without too much trouble. You've also got quite a bit of a tech boost with which to keep the barbs on your side. Aside from that, there aren't any other tribes really pressing to expand into, for instance, the Caucasus. Contrast that with the Anglo-Saxons and Franks, who start with 7 tiles between their capitals, or the Visigoths, who start literally sandwiched between the Ostrogoths and both Romes. In those situations, and with everyone a potential enemy, you'll definitely want to keep expansion down to what you can defend right now, rather than sending a settler out and getting defenders to it when you can muster them.

In short, I think the strategies are going to vary widely between the Sassanids and the barbarian hordes.

	29-03-2005 22:08									#10
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Ok: The exteremly fertile land near Sassainds: Excelent city sites, IF you have enough units producing military cities when the Huns come calling. (And E Rome)

Their stack will probably reach you before you have the tech for Heavy Calvary.

AI though as Sass also builds several extremely unfertile cities up in southern Turkey, which is what I was mostly refering to.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 I played this once as the Sassanids, I think on Emperor. It seems to me there is no harm in making many new cities, especially in the extremely fertile Persian land (lots of bonus food). The other barbarians destroyed Western Rome, while I took on Eastern Rome. It turned out to be pretty easy, even with cities built up much more than what Jon suggests. Of course the game lasted longer because of the builder orgy.

	29-03-2005 22:18									#11
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I just set a personal record in FoR for catching up with the Romes in techs.

Turn 49 as the Celts

1. During GA from attack on West Rome, upgraded science slider from 30% to 60% to finish Construction that turn.

2. Contacted West Rome, and found out they would surrender Fortifacation and their WM for peace and 15 gold. Deal! (Since I'd already captured Londomium shortly before and have no intentations on giving them 20 turns of peace. )

3. Buy everyone's maps.

4. E Rome sells me Bryztine Inquinity for WM and 18 gold

5. Sassidens sell me the military tech allowing Heavy Calvary for WM and 33 gold

6. W Rome has nothing interesting to offer [just Imperalism] and netiher does E Rome nor Sass. Sell the WM to W Rome for all their gold since E Rome would just give them a free update on their turn anyway.

7. Sell WM to all non-broke barb civs.

Victory Status

W Rome : -4 cities [3 starting ones in England + the one they founded]
E Rome: -1 city [VP location in Isreal]

	29-03-2005 22:33									#12
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Ok: The exteremly fertile land near Sassainds: Excelent city sites, IF you have enough units producing military cities when the Huns come calling. (And E Rome)

Never had a problem with anyone but Eastern Rome. The other barbs were easy enough to keep at bay. Early on, they just go after Rome, so all you do is let them have it. Some diplomatic skills are necessary to keep the status quo beyond the extinction of one Rome. Basically, you will be at war with other tribes, but you should be able to turn them against each other long enough to end the game without major battles.

As to Heavy Cavalry, not haing it is a small problem. With many quickly growing cities, the Sassanids have a powerful production base, so you can compete easily. The Romans never seemed to use enough Legions to actually become dangerous, and their other units are crap. It is true, that Heavy Cavalry makes your offensives that much more powerful, so it should still be a priority.

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn AI though as Sass also builds several extremely unfertile cities up in southern Turkey, which is what I was mostly refering to.

True, the territories outside the fertile area are only good for military camps (Walls, Barracks, on Hill - unit resting and staging place).

	30-03-2005 04:05									#13
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I think the issue with Roman Legions in FoR is that Legions have the AI defensive flag on.

And I think the Roman AI would also not be so overwhelmed if their Garrisons were a 1/3/1 20 s instead of 1/2/1 20s

Might also be somewhat more of a challenge if multi city elimination was bumped up from 8 to 10. (10 is max the editor allows)

	30-03-2005 21:45									#14
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Just noticed something last night, probably applies to all games not just FoR.

When I broke my twenty turn peace with Western Rome [I had broke alliances to sign that deal, I couldn't get any of the AIs to sign an alliance with me against Eastern Rome.]

That is not good due to distance between me and the closest Eastern Rome cities.

3 cities left before W Rome collapses. I'm picking the 3 W Roman cities that are closest to fastest route to the Eastern Rome cities as my targets.

I'm connecting the Horse resource in England as well for Heavy Calvary.

I did manage to get Eastern Rome to collapse without help. Turn 90, so it was kind of slow, but got the job done. E Rome had accumlated 25K points by then. I now have a big lead compared to surviving players, but not enough so someone's got to go, and the Anglo Saxon reckless city forming pattern makes them the easy target. (That and I have an active ROP with the Franks)

Last edited by joncnunn on 04-04-2005 at 00:16

	23-04-2005 23:22									#15
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Anglo Saxons were indeed wiped out. Franks demanded tribute and declared war when I refused and so they lost several cities, but not all as I trigured VP before wiping out their 7th city.

	23-04-2005 23:26									#16
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One more important note, taking the 8th city that collapses an empire credits the player doing so with a lot of VPs.
Namely, you get credit for conquering all their remaining cities + credit for destroying all of their remaning units.

This does have the ironic effect that on Sid level, there is no need to collapse both Romes to win. Collapsing one of the Romes + any barb empire will do.

But this also means that you can't really allow an AI to collapse either Rome on that level.

	31-05-2005 21:07									#17
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Playing this one as the Sassidens now.

Barbarism is too expensive too research [even with all contacts], but can be stolen extremely cheaply very early on.

The Sassidens can actually build all the barb units in addition to their own. And they can buy the rest of the barb techs for very reasonable prices as well, say a contact or the WM. You start with two Heavy Calvary [named Immortal I and Immoral II] in addition to horsemen.

But Romes pricing of their techs are so expensive that you need to research Map Making and Fortification between 1/3rd and 1/2th yourself.

I still do not recommend libaries as the Sass; there just isn't enough techs to justify them. Instead build the obvious cities with migrants and then focus on military units.

Rank of Wonders as the Sassidens

Scourage of God : #1. (Requires the steal barbarism tactic )Spawns a War Lord and acts like HE. The unforunate thing under my proposed tech path is you can't time a prebuild correctly for it.

St Peter's : #2. Acts as ToA. Because of all the luxaries near you, in most cases you can actually wait for St Peters, unlike the other tribes which pretty much need Temples soon just for happiness.

The one that doubles churches happiness : #3. Okay, I guess.

Justine's Leadership: #4. Acts as Sun Tzu + HE. Costs 600 shields. Baracks are half price for you and as a result you'd have to build an awful lot of cities for this wonder to pay for itself.

I also note that too get a challenge as the Sassidens, one should probably not steal barbarism. Or alternatively, mod the game and remove the Sassidens from the list of civs that can build all of those barb units.

Last edited by joncnunn on 01-06-2005 at 02:14

	03-06-2005 19:19									#18
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quote: Both Romes (Rome Eternal): 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 difficulty levels easier than base in the hands of a compenant human.

Pardon? Have you actually played this? I'd call it more than 2 levels aboave any Barbarian Civ (WRome gets easier in the midgame, admittedly).
Sassanids suffer from their bad initial units, but are still among the easiest.

Am I correct you didn't really play that conquest from several sides ?

	03-06-2005 19:49									#19
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I read the Rome Eternal threads over at Civ Fanatics that were on DemiGod level. Everyone said "too easy" as is and had some pretty stong proposed modifications to make it harder. (Both groups saying things like don't allow Rome to build Settlers and have the human rome unable to build workers, among other things.)

What they did was attack the barb tribes immedately while the barb tribes still had weak units.

quote: Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski Pardon? Have you actually played this? I'd call it more than 2 levels aboave any Barbarian Civ (WRome gets easier in the midgame, admittedly). Sassanids suffer from their bad initial units, but are still among the easiest. Am I correct you didn't really play that conquest from several sides ?

	11-06-2005 19:50									#20
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Well, I was part of the WRome team.
And nobody in the threads said it would be even somewhat as easy as the normal version - it just was "easy" enough to be beatable by such a collection of veterans (especially in the ERome team) on DG (while Ed Beach initially wasn't sure it can be won at all; during their internal testing nobody could win on Monarch)...but it still was easier to beat Sid with Celts.

The whole discussion about tweaks was to make it as hard as promised - not because it would be in any way easier than the unmodded FoR.