16-12-2000 03:56									#1
	play civ simultaneous not turn based? Full PM-box? Change here!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/Forum3/HTML/000051.html

	16-12-2000 04:59									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

http://forums.civfanatics.com/Forum3/HTML/000051.html
Ahhh, no you bastard. You beat me to it!

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"I'm too out of shape for a long fight so I'll have to kill you fast"
"If LESS is MORE, just think of how much MORE, MORE would be!"
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	16-12-2000 05:04									#3
	Remove this text

Here's the full text

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Simultaneous Move in Multiplayer?

I received an interesting email from Tony Toon yesterday. Here it is:


I don't know if this'd qualify as news or not but.. I got Test of Time today at Wal-Mart, and was playing it with a friend, when we quickly got upset that we couldn't play in simultaneous mode like in Civnet. Anyways, I got tinkering about in the .EXE file, and figured out that if you add "Simultaneous=1" to the CIV.INI in your \WINDOWS directory, it allows you to choose the humans move simultaneously option. It seems it was removed from the game officially, but it so far has worked fine. Dunno if it'd work in Civ2MPG or not, but it might, since they look to be based on the same engine. I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but if it isn't, just give me credit or whatever. Hope this is helpful.
This is definitly not common knowledge... Give this method a try and let me know whether it works for you or not by posting to the multiplayer forum. Thanks Tony for this potentially important discovery.

[This message has been edited by Thunderfall (edited December 15, 2000).]


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Hmm it's far too early for an april fool

I have ToT so I'll be trying it out right now! (check back in 5min)

	16-12-2000 05:11									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It works! Why didn't they tell us!? John has a lot to answer for in the ToT forum!


I'll try making a screenshot and posting it, can anyone playtest this with me in a quick ToT MPsession?
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited December 15, 2000).]</font>

	16-12-2000 05:22									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Seems Cornmaster has beaten me too it

It works in Civ2MP gold!


P.S
IMG removed because it caused extra strain on the cinfanatics page. You can still see it at the civfanatics forum. Sorry for any trouble caused.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited December 16, 2000).]</font>

	16-12-2000 05:46									#6
	Put an end to popups!

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Ahhh, no you bastard. You beat me to it!

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actually im a *****... =) get the gender right if your going to flame me....

(odd that the female form of the word is baned while the male form is not) sexest software...hrumph


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by boann (edited December 15, 2000).]</font>

	16-12-2000 06:16									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That is tellin him
this is a test - *****

	16-12-2000 07:02									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Wow, this is quite a revolution in the game. The whole nature of play changes with this. I like having it turn based though, so i won't use the new feature, but quite marvelous that it is there.

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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net

	16-12-2000 09:06									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by OzzyKP on 12-15-2000 09:02 PM</font>


Wow, this is quite a revolution in the game. The whole nature of play changes with this. I like having it turn based though, so i won't use the new feature, but quite marvelous that it is there.


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It's still turn based but you make your moves at the same time. That's all. Anyway. Sorry boann, you *****.


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"I'm too out of shape for a long fight so I'll have to kill you fast"
"If LESS is MORE, just think of how much MORE, MORE would be!"
I AM CANADIAN!
Civfanatics.com Civ 2 Multiplayer Ladder!
My Civ 2 Scenario Page.

	16-12-2000 09:20									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

LOL ..CornMaster
but don't you think it dumb...that i can call
you a bastard all night...
and you can only throw a line of stars at me...

	16-12-2000 11:03									#11
	Got spare money?

Wow incredible. There must be some sort of bug since it wasn't included no?

	16-12-2000 14:49									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I set it up on my home network to try it out.
All looked fine until I realised that I couldn't use two keyboards at once!
duh


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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

	16-12-2000 17:10									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

When you quit out and start another game it removes the "1" in the ini file automatically and you have to keep putting it back each time you start a session.

------------------
*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

	16-12-2000 20:37									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Here is a guess as to why developers left the option off of the released product.

Lag (caused by poor data transfer rates) problems.

Lag can cause a delay of several seconds before a move is registered on the host, or your machine is notified of another tribe's move.

Several conflict possibilities come to mind...

A unit from different tribes pass thru the same square. Once the data is registered on the host machine, should a battle take place? If a time stamp is used, should the later unit be backed up?
How do you notify a player of a ZOC violation after the unit is moved back?

Settlers from different tribes move onto the same square and build a city. Who gets the city? What do you do with the settler that does not get the city?

2 tribes build the same wonder and complete it on the same turn... who gets it if the game is in real time?

I use Mac OS and I do not know where to reset the options to allow this real time play, so I leave it up to others to test these types of conflicts. My guess is that you could get some strange results or a crash.

	17-12-2000 10:01									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It's NOT Real Time!!!! It's Simultanious Turns!!!!!

And I'm writing a program that will set that option for you. As well as 3!!! different ways to deploy this option, and 1 to keep it there ALL the time!!!

Check out the civfanatics link above. That's where I posted the description. I'll have it finished up tonight.

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"I'm too out of shape for a long fight so I'll have to kill you fast"
"If LESS is MORE, just think of how much MORE, MORE would be!"
I AM CANADIAN!
Civfanatics.com Civ 2 Multiplayer Ladder!
My Civ 2 Scenario Page.

	17-12-2000 10:25									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

Can it be activated in a scenario? That is the only one i couldn't figure out. I would suspect some status field in the save game needs to be changed

	17-12-2000 10:28									#17
	Suffering from ads?

Get this working right, and this evening(7pm CST) I'll come home and test it with some people, then I'll shout it from every rooftop in the Civ world...I'll hold a tournament Sunday in honor of it if it works.

	17-12-2000 10:30									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Okay call it "simultaneous" instead of "real time". I agree that it is still turned based, because eventually you run out of units to move.

However, I think that the same lag bugs will still apply. If 2 players move units within a second or two of each other, then it is possible for those units to occupy the same square before the data has transfered to the host and back out to the other player's machines. The question becomes how does the game react to that situation.

Try to test this by starting a game with 2 or more players (it would be good to have one player with a slower connection, say 28kb modem). Set the game at 2 x movement (to speed up the test). March your units to each others borders. Then test the ZOC by trying to move thru or past each other at roughly the same moment.

Another test would be to build the same wonder (2x production would speed this test) and arrange to complete it on the same turn. Who gets the wonder benefits?

I am very curious to know how the game reacts.
&lt;font size=1 face=Arial color=444444&gt;[This message has been edited by Epik (edited December 16, 2000).]&lt;/font&gt;
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Epik (edited December 16, 2000).]</font>

	17-12-2000 10:33									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think I understand. The order of play is still as usual, but all players use the same turn-length to do their moves at the same time.

If so, then there *are* so problems. Civs later in play order would be making moves blindly not knowing the situation where their units stop. So there would be a horrible disadvantage in having the last Civ to move.

It is an interesting idea. I don't plan to use it, though.

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	17-12-2000 10:49									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

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<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by cavebear on 12-16-2000 12:33 PM</font>
Civs later in play order would be making moves blindly not knowing the situation where their units stop. So there would be a horrible disadvantage in having the last Civ to move.

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Really? I take this as thew production half of the turn goes by, each Civ gets their respective production by standard order. Then, instead of letting the white Civ go first in the move pieces half of the turn, all hell breaks lose with every Civ moving at once? How would this give those in the purple Civ a disadvantage? They could start to move at exactly the same time as the white Civ.

Am I missing something?

	16-12-2000 23:12									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh on 12-16-2000 12:49 PM</font>
Really? I take this as thew production half of the turn goes by, each Civ gets their respective production by standard order. Then, instead of letting the white Civ go first in the move pieces half of the turn, all hell breaks lose with every Civ moving at once? How would this give those in the purple Civ a disadvantage? They could start to move at exactly the same time as the white Civ.

Am I missing something?
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I think that is the difference between "real-time" and "simultaneous" play. Real-time would just mean that everyone moved as fast as possible and that preference would be determined by nonoseconds of "who-moved-first". Simultaneous, as I understand what is said so far, means that everyone sets up their moves at the same time, then the computer stops and carries them all out at once.

Does that difference make sense? Does that make sense (I don't mean that one or the other is the way it works, but that there could be 2 meanings of how the play goes)?

	16-12-2000 23:21									#22
	Support Apolyton

Okay, I see what you mean now...Hmmm never thought of it that way. Gee, that posses many a question. For instance fighters...since they have to land after attacking, how would one tell it to attack X city and then go back to carrier or other city after the attack. Hmmmmm indeed.

	17-12-2000 00:12									#23
	Suffering from ads?

Or what about 2-step moves (like moving a diplomat into a city)? You get a choice of options of establing an embassy or stealing tech, etc.

Even if the software allowed you to make that choice in advance, what if the other player disbanded that city on the same move, leaving no city to dip-attack?

Hmmm, how would you even have a chance to negotiate with other players via embassies? That's interactive, yet outside of turn-play.

Heck, what about 2 civs moving units in opposite directions on a railway? The movement is zero, but would the computer make them stop mid-way and fight? And what if it was a strategic ally whom you cannot fight?

	17-12-2000 00:28									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

yes, lots of large game mp stuff to work out, well atleast it will give us something to do for awhile :-)
To bad I have a christmas party tonight, or I'd join Franks game. Me and markus did do some prelimenary testing last night, but just to make sure that it does work as advertised....and it does in MGE.

DarkStorm, Proud Warrior of the Sayen.

	17-12-2000 04:50									#25
	Got spare money?

I haven't tested it in MP but my guess is that the simultaneous movement settings is based on the one in civnet. That game was the original MP version of civ1 and there all players could move during the same turn. It did give some interesting possibilities, you could have 'dogfights' between enemy bombers and fighters for example. My guess is that this setting is best played over a LAN. Because lag could be a (major)problem if your playing with a slow connection over the internet.


For the meantime, just report anything you might find. Weird bugs,lag problems...keep it coming!

	17-12-2000 21:40									#26
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

this brings up a whole possiblity of tactics that arnt in the game right now. players wont be able to do things like they used to,such as make a horse, move a horse, fortify, and watch it to see if another unit moves by. with all units moving anytime you will be preoccupied with other units and not even get a chance to pay attention like you do in the off turn now. it sure is a big twist on the game. this make defense more important in the view that if you have a good defense then the other players wont even be able to get to your cities, kinda like now but a little differnt. i would like to try out some games like this.
one question though, what happens if you have 100 units to move and someone hits enter on the last move ending the turn?

if this doesnt make much sense ive got a very bad pounding headache and i cant think to clearly

	18-12-2000 10:15									#27
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Moker Guy on 12-17-2000 11:40 AM</font>
what happens if you have 100 units to move and someone hits enter on the last move ending the turn?

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I think that all players will have to end their turn before you can move to the next round. So even if you finish all your unit moves quickly you still have to wait for the rest. Unless you play with a timer of course.

	18-12-2000 01:59									#28
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If any player has lag, then an advantage would go to the host or whoever has less lag. Just like slow trigger finger vs fast... :two horsemen units make contact at same instant with only half their movement used...first to attack wins.

	18-12-2000 04:27									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

wouldn't you almost be at an advantage to WAIT? Then, you can see where everyone moves and you cna plan from there.

Of course, you could always do it where you would attack someone at the VERY end of a turn, and maybe empty out their city... and then at the beginning of the next turn, before they can get any units into that city, you would take it right away.

	18-12-2000 08:36									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

OK, I been testing on my LAN... but too crook to make a lengthy post - later on maybe...
But quickly:
It is simultaneous as per RTS within the context of one turn at a time.. hmmmmm
IE I played Zulus and Aztecs against each other.
Zulus should move first but If Aztecs get there quick enough they can fire the shot ahead of their turn - it sucks, IMHO
There would be total chaos in a huge war!
Therefore host has huge advantage....
I also fired two Horses at each other at the same time - Aztec host seemed to have advbantage even on a LAN, but further testing needed.... then there are the nanoseconds between keyboards!

I'm still in a mood and crook

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924