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Admiral
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of the peace and coexistance movement
Feb 2001
time: 00:32
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Conveniently timed to coincide with the second annual European Day of Action, let this be a discussion of the problems of undocumented migrants (sans papiers, if you will) in Europe.
First, a couple of facts:
There are roughly 55 million undocumented migrants in Europe alone (160-200M in the world, but that's a discussion for another thread).
Europe has a network of refugee/detention camps designed to accomodate migrants until the government decides what to do with them.
There is a large political reaction against migrants even as the European economies lag and population rates continue to decline. Le Pen and whoever the guy was in the Netherlands are the most prominent examples of this, but right wing and even centrist parties are taking up the banner.
And now for the biased bit:
The concept of human rights has been tied unjustly to the rights of the citizen. In the case of these undocumented migrants, they "belong" to no state, and therefore, they have no larger body to protect their rights. Any rights they may accrue during their sojourn in a particular country are "granted." They are a privilege. Given that privileges are something that one can take away, this is an unfortunate development.
Concerning the system of camps: apparently, these are not pleasant sites. People are put into them, and often remain there for as long as two years, they are stripped of any human dignity they once possessed. They have no voice, and at times go to extreme measures to regain that voice (some guy sewed his lips together to symbolize his voicelessness. Others assuredly engage in similar activities).
Even outside of these camps, there is an aura of oppression surrounding treatment of these people. In Brescia, Italy, migrants are, through housing policies, forced to only buy houses in one particular area, now known as Little Darkar. There is a system of police harrassment, in effect a trampling of rights.
Essentially, two trends have been going on in Europe. First, as internal borders are loosened, exterior borders are being strengthened. There have been major initiatives monitor the entire Mediterranean, using a very expensive system of ships, aircraft, and land-based radar networks (operation Ulysses, now cancelled, is a prime example). Borders are also being thickened. Morocco essentially functions as a border, in that Europe runs refugee camps inside Morocco, and puts huge economic pressure on Morocco to heavily patrol its southern border.
Second, inside Europe, people are being made to live as borders. It does not matter how long people have been living in Europe, they are deemed "not European" and shunned from the culture. This has the effect of forcing these people to band together, and discourages them from adopting to local cultures, thus propogating fears of the right. The new international focus on terrorism has made many governments view these people as potential terrorists, and to label them all as "dangerous classes."
Naturally, the less these people are granted rights, the more these people are stereotyped, the more these people are harrassed, the more they are likely to resort to violence. Violence has always been assumed to be the last refuge of the voiceless (look at the mideast - completely voiceless young men instantly transform themselves into international headlines by blowing themselves up), and the more European policies continue in this trend, the more likely it is that Europe will start to experience more of these sorts of incidents.
But most of that is coming out of a liberal arts college. What do we know? I am curious to hear the viewpoint of Europeans on this issue.
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Admiral
There are roughly 55 million undocumented migrants in Europe alone (160-200M in the world, but that's a discussion for another thread).
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If they are undocumented, how do you know their numbers?
quote:
Originally posted by Admiral
Europe has a network of refugee/detention camps designed to accomodate migrants until the government decides what to do with them.
There is a large political reaction against migrants even as the European economies lag and population rates continue to decline. Le Pen and whoever the guy was in the Netherlands are the most prominent examples of this, but right wing and even centrist parties are taking up the banner.
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umm... you are putting the cart before the horse. What is happening (in the UK at least) is that more people are taking it as an issue... hence the politicians interest in in.
Personally, I'm not that bothered about "undocumented" migrants as much as concerned for their welfare. "Undocumented" migrants outside the system (and hence outside those camps you were talking about) are usually exploited as slave manual or sexual labour, drug mules etc.
The ones who enter the camps are at less risk of that sort of exploitation, at least.
quote:
Originally posted by Admiral
And now for the biased bit:
The concept of human rights has been tied unjustly to the rights of the citizen. In the case of these undocumented migrants, they "belong" to no state, and therefore, they have no larger body to protect their rights. Any rights they may accrue during their sojourn in a particular country are "granted." They are a privilege. Given that privileges are something that one can take away, this is an unfortunate development.
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As far as I am aware European Bill of Rights now applies within all EU countries...
quote:
Originally posted by Admiral
Concerning the system of camps: apparently, these are not pleasant sites. People are put into them, and often remain there for as long as two years, they are stripped of any human dignity they once possessed. They have no voice, and at times go to extreme measures to regain that voice (some guy sewed his lips together to symbolize his voicelessness. Others assuredly engage in similar activities).
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Indeed, they are inadequate, miserable places. More should be built to help with overcrowding, but all too often possible sites are opposed by local NIMBY residents (Not in My Back Yard).
quote:
Originally posted by Admiral
Even outside of these camps, there is an aura of oppression surrounding treatment of these people. In Brescia, Italy, migrants are, through housing policies, forced to only buy houses in one particular area, now known as Little Darkar. There is a system of police harrassment, in effect a trampling of rights.
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Police hassle anyone they think they can bully. Treatment of migrant workers varies greatly from country to country.
quote:
Originally posted by Admiral
Essentially, two trends have been going on in Europe. First, as internal borders are loosened, exterior borders are being strengthened.
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News to me!
quote:
Originally posted by Admiral
Second, inside Europe, people are being made to live as borders. It does not matter how long people have been living in Europe, they are deemed "not European" and shunned from the culture. This has the effect of forcing these people to band together, and discourages them from adopting to local cultures, thus propogating fears of the right. The new international focus on terrorism has made many governments view these people as potential terrorists, and to label them all as "dangerous classes."
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Again, this differs a lot from country to country, and individuals within a country have different attitudes.
I would consider anyone who adopts "British" attitudes to be British (fair play, working within the law, and stout opposisition to tyrannies are 3 examples of British attitudes.
Other Brits wouldn't agree.
quote:
Originally posted by Admiral
Naturally, the less these people are granted rights, the more these people are stereotyped, the more these people are harrassed, the more they are likely to resort to violence. Violence has always been assumed to be the last refuge of the voiceless (look at the mideast - completely voiceless young men instantly transform themselves into international headlines by blowing themselves up), and the more European policies continue in this trend, the more likely it is that Europe will start to experience more of these sorts of incidents.
But most of that is coming out of a liberal arts college. What do we know? I am curious to hear the viewpoint of Europeans on this issue. |
Violence towards immigrants inevitably brings out a backlash of violence.
Which is why I accept migrant workers rather than getting on their backs.
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Combat Ingrid
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Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Admiral
Second, inside Europe, people are being made to live as borders. It does not matter how long people have been living in Europe, they are deemed "not European" and shunned from the culture. This has the effect of forcing these people to band together, and discourages them from adopting to local cultures, thus propogating fears of the right. The new international focus on terrorism has made many governments view these people as potential terrorists, and to label them all as "dangerous classes." |
There is a problem with racism against immigrants, that some people think they are foreigners just because they have darker skin, even if they have otherwise assimilated themselves into the mainstream culture. A bigger problem, IMO, is that (at least in Sweden) the government is firmly against assimilation of the immigrants. You often hear things like "integration-absolutely, assimilation-absolutely not", or that "it's not the immigrants who should adapt to us, but we who should adapt to the immigrants". And then they wonder why our society has become so segregated 
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:32
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There was an excellent streak of documentaries on the issue on the French-German TV recently here (French) or here (German).
Europe is tightening its borders indeed, as several western European countries have basically stated they weren't interested in economic immigration, except skilled professionals (brain drain). In particular, the Spanish and the Italians have considerably improved their guard of their shores near North Africa. Besides, most North African countries are now fighting immigration (in particular, Lybia stops plenty of would-be european immigrants, stocks them in inhumane camps, before sending them home).
As always, Europe is very diverse. Countries treat their illegal aliens very differently. In Germany, the centres for asylum seekres are pretty cozy, while in France many asylum seekers must stay for days locked in the airport, in completely inadequate facilities (it's especially bad for hygiene and watering  ).
I disagree with Cruddy when he says the political interest toward racism is a cause rather than a consequence. I guess this disagreement comes from different national experiences however. Over here, Le Pen has long been a major racist, as his party has existed since the 60ies or 70ies, though nobody heard of him by then. He became hugely popular in the mid-80ies, when he had a large access to TV to explain his views (it was a political gambit by Mitterrand to hurt his political opponents on the right ).
Since then, he has turned the issue of immigration and security -which are far from the most pressing and which are barely related- into major items on the agenda. To the point that the last presidential election was about these very issues, instead of the economy. However, when Le Pen doesn't campaign, the issue of immigration is fairly low on the radar.
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Apolyton Time is 00:32. |
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01-04-2005 07:30
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