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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
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Are politicians rich, no. They make OK salary, but they are not rich. Most have debts in fact.
No you can't make a deal with any cops. Seriously, do not try to bribe cops. No joke, don't even suggest it.
contacts, very important. That's how it works most of the times. Sad, but true.
where's number 4?
No I don't know anyone who has bribed state officials or medical doctors. It might exist in different form, like offering a deal back or such, but straight out cash offers, never heard of them, and I would not try them myself. Too risky. Most likely not accepted.
No. No one buys there way through university. It's a free school, meaning no tuition (except for what.. like less than 100 euros?). You can't buy your way through as a rule. I wouldn't dare suggesting it either. Also individuals do not give money to erect new buildings, so no.
Scandal involving gov funds.. I can't remember one. The 'scandals' that are in tabloids mostly are about the reps who used most their free cell phone, meaning they got the buggest phone bills, stuff like that. But it'll make us mad anyway.
Lower sentences. What do you mean lower sentences. Everyone gets the lower sentences. Rich people, I don't know, maybe they don't have to go to court at all.
The way it works in here, is that there is no way to work it around. The only way you might get benefits is if you know someone who can help you, that is good connections. And then depends what you need. It's next to impossible to buy people in here, because a) you don't have to money for it and b) IRS is a ***** and c) if someone finds out, cops will actually come and get you (but court will set you free, eventually).
So no not really.. I guess what we consider bribing is what happens everywhere and is not considered bribing, that is to use the expense count a lot and make someone drunk all the time and show them good time. Or give them good deals back and try to find some exclusivity going on. That's the only bribes I can think of. More like unethical instead of straight out criminal.
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VetLegion
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Pekka thanks for the reply, I'll read it.
quote:
Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Finland is the least corrupted nation in the world. That doesn't mean it's 100% clean though |
Well isn't it at least a little suspicious to you? Why them? Why not, say, Singapore or Japan or something?
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
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well yes tehre have been scandals, but they are mostly bad investments. Nothing criminal type. Except being stupid investor.
Paying to get faster treatment? If you have that kind of money, then you go to private doc, no waiting time. Why bribe when you could get it from better doctors anyway? 
Besides, doctors make good money in here, so they don't need little pennies.
Being a politician is also one of the more lucrative jobs in here. But having a job in here means you won't be rich, and I'm not talking bling bling rich, I'm talking any kind of rich, driving Benz rich. You have to own your own company, or make excellent investments, or be criminal. Those are the ONLY 3 ways to become rich. But sure, politicians do make OK money and they are not poor, and are more than middle class, but they are not rich by default, not at all. Say they do their 4 job rotation, with all that salary, they can't even buy a house in here.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
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But there is some corrupt behaviour in here too, that's for sure. But most of the dealings in here, not really, and the dark side they might have is mostly unethical deals, breaking the capitalist competition rules and such, to get ahead. An individual does not bribe another person in here. Tehre might be few exceptions, but only to make the rule. To offer bribes is most likely interpreted as an insult anyway, or just too risky. Word gets around fast... dishonesty is being treated as a bad attribute, and when you do it in society level, dealing with officials etc, word gets out, it gets hostile very soon and the lynching mob is on their way. So no.. not really.. I don't even expect to be offered any kind of bribes, no matter what position I was in. Nor would I offer bribes. In Mexico? I would offer bribes.
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VetLegion
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I've been thinking about corruption a lot lately (well, in the last half hour or so) and I have come to conclusion, and your replies confirm them, that it's all a house of cards really.
It rests on trust. What if one day, ONE Finn tries to bribe a cop. And he accepts. This spreads around in a chain reaction and sooner than you know it, your company is paying a percentage to get the contract and you can't do squat without pulling strings.
What is weird about Finland is that it is relatively small at about 5 million people, yes it is not really a everyone-knows-everyone situation, but refusing to do favors to people and cooperate would come back to you pretty fast and hit you in the head.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
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No no no.. I'm not talking about not doing favours. But that's different, with no money involved. Of course you can do favours, but most likely you do them to people you know, thus connections. Good brother system works in here as well.
Sure there must be at least one who has offered bribes and at least one cop who has actualyl accepted it. No doubt. But it is not common. It's not even considered a remote possibility.
But if you want to make good deals, you can always entertain your clients and guests, but then again that's what everyone does and is not considered bribes.
You just can't get away with bribing, I mean the chances of it working are minimal, it might work every now and then, but every 19 out of 20 it won't, so do you ever even get to try the 20th attempt?
But you have to know ways to .. get things work faster. Sometimes it can't work, but sometimes it does. LIke me getting my passport, me getting my drivers license, me not paying 2 months worth of rent because I signed off the contract and I was supposed to be 2 extra months. Things like that are possible. Most Finns think it isn't possible, like you don't heckle here, unless you're buying a car. If you can find someone who heckles in public in here, outside car shop, you get 7 days, I'll buy you a beer. It is considered embarrasing by most. Same with leaving tips.
Basically, will the taxi driver drive faster if I promise him something extra? Most likely. But this isn't corrupt behaviour. Will I get better service in a bar if I give 5 euro tip to the bouncer? No. Will I get better service after I have given him 5 euros every single time, every weekend for a year? Yes. Will I get better and faster service if I leave 10 euros to the one making drinks? Yes, when that person starts remembering you, yes you will get faster service. But this is normal. And still rarely used .
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VetLegion
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Well, here we dong haggle either (except when buying used stuff or something like that), and tipping is also not necessary and if you don't tip you still get normal service.
BUT we regularly bribe traffic cops, and we regularly read about government officials' scandals. We don't trust our state apparatus one little bit.
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VetLegion
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And what about omerta? Well, not really omerta, but general loyalty.
I'm guessing you wouldn't rat out a family member/friend/colleague involved in corruption?
Say, you work for the government, your colleague at work takes bribes, would you turn him in? Of course not.
Also, if you employ people for the state, you are supposed to give priority to a whole range of people (friends, schoolmates, lovers, relatives, neighbours and whatnot) before you consider which candidate is actually best. We're a small country (4.5 million) and you have to do this. Your loyalty is not with the state, but with people you know. But since everyone does this, it destroys trust. And that sucks.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
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Nah, it doesn't mean Finns are the most honest folks. We think we are, but it doesn't make it so. Yes, we would bribe if it was the .. way things are done.
Yes, connections is all where it's at. Of course, it's always someone who knew someone that gets the job.
Loyalty is considered a big thing naturally. Not to state, but to friends and family. But we are simple people, so there are things that are considered valuable and automatic, like favouritism (loyalty), honesty and that you do what you say, and also in the timeline. If you study business in here, we have to read books and be taught how it works in many other places. Basically, in here yes means yes, no means no and maybe means more likely yes but might mean no if the other one is just polite but annoyed. So it's very simple in here. You get what you see, and you see what you get. That's it.
The only crooked bastards are car sellers, always lying about the conditions of the car. But with officials, you won't get far with bribes. HOWEVER you do get far if you know them .
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
[Lack of corruption] rests on trust. |
Yup, as well as other factors. And this kinf of trust exists in part because of the lack of corruption. It's a typical benign circle.
quote:
What if one day, ONE Finn tries to bribe a cop. And he accepts. |
In a country of 5 million, that has been independent for decades, I bet it has happened. And more than once. And recently. However, occasional corruption (that exists even in Finland) does not have the following consequence: "This spreads around in a chain reaction and sooner than you know it, your company is paying a percentage to get the contract and you can't do squat without pulling strings".
I'd think many Finns (especially those who are in positions that are interesting to bribe) find the very notion as morally abhorrent. Even in France, which is certainly not a model, many civil servants (teachers, policemen) feel insulted when you mention bribing them: that's because equality is one of the core values of the Republic they serve (I mean, it's often re-affirmed as a core value. Any bribed teacher or policeman goes completely against the principles they're fed with).
One of the main differences between societies of generalized corruption (think Africa) and societies of slighter corruption, is the acceptance of the different forms of corruption. In France, most people readily accept the fact that if you have good connexions (not necessarily money), you can cancel a fine, get public housing faster, or get jobs*. However, the idea of buying a driver's licence is abhorrent, whereas it is an accepted norm in plenty of more corrupt countries.
In Subsaharian Africa, corruption is an essential form of wealth transfer. A very large chunk of the population gets to have some public money in form of corruption/clientelism, rather than in the form of services. Of course, the top politicians are those who benefit the most, but political corruption digs deeply in the general population. These are countries where you can do nothing without permanently "greasing the gears".
In Asia (can't say for Singapore, but it's definitely the case in Malaysia), you have to bribe business partners and public services to get anything. It's very different than in most business-worlds of the West. In Kuala Lumpur, there are any middlemen who flourish as they offer their local expertise to foreign investors who are clueless about it. In the West, if you're looking for a provider for your business, you'll look for who offers the best quality and price. In Malaysia, you'll prefer the "second best" (still an acceptable choice) if the best is too haughty and refuses to give you -the exec- some nice gifts that'll help the decision.
*I am under the impression that it is changing, at least for the expectations toward the public sector
quote:
What is weird about Finland is that it is relatively small at about 5 million people, yes it is not really a everyone-knows-everyone situation, but refusing to do favors to people and cooperate would come back to you pretty fast and hit you in the head. |
Nope. This kind of trust is called "generalized trust". It takes much time for a society to build it, but it's also not easy to undo it. This is a kind of trust where you generally expect others to do things the right way, and your lifelong experience confirms it. It has been proven that a strongly equalitarian society is very helpful in creating such trust, as people generally won't be "suckers" in such a society.
This kind of trust is difficult to achieve, but once it's there, pretty much everybody enjoys the benefits except the antisocial psychotics.
I have noticed the creation of a "general trust" in France on a very simple matter: in the subway station, we wait first for the descending passengers to exit, before entering. A few years ago, it was not the case: people rushed in the train before anybody exited, so that they could have their seats first (if you waited, you were basically the "sucker"). Yet, rushing in the train would be the "natural" behaviour: a friend of mine was baffled by the extent of that behaviour in Greek buses, where people actually fought to enter the bus. In today's Paris, however, you won't see it. It sure took time to have people act this way, but everybody benefits from the extra comfort provided by waiting (I mean, the train is much less empty after the descending passengers exited than before  ) And even if sometimes the occasional ******* will try to climb too soon, it won't shake the bulk of people who generally enjoy the extra comfort.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
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This is actually a little bit deeper and difficult to explain why it is like it is. You would have to know the people and their general nature etc to understand it better.
Basically, the one who cheats and gets rich is considered the ultimate criminal. Because it's impossible to get rich by working hard in normal jobs. It just won't happen. You have to own your business and make a killing, or you have to be a criminal or born rich. And even criminals are nto rich in here except maybe few are.
We have a popular saying that goes 'who is happy should hide it'. People get very jealous in here, fast. If you get a new car, some people think 'hey cool car' and most people will also think 'what crime did he pull off to get that'. Because, normal person should not have a nice car. How can he afford it? And if it's criminal, it's away from everyone else, high taxes you see.
If you are rich, even legally, then you are still most likely not well liked. If you were always poor and win the lottery, I'm not joking when I say, the fewer that know, the better. People get jealous. People who get a break, are not well liked. People are jealous. BEcause most of the people have worked very hard all their lives, and what do they have to show for it? We see television, all these nice things, movies, the apprentice, everything, and we think that since you work hard, you are supposed to get compensated, instead the gov sucks it all up in taxes that goes to some other people who are too lazy to work. THat's what most think. So, if you get money somewhere, hide it. Go somewhere else to party. That way you still have friends AND the money.
So it's also very difficult to get rich by anything else than legal work, because no one will like you and people will think you stole it anyway. Would someone tip off someone else, if they knew it was tax evation or something else, but they didn't know that person personally? Likely yes, if they are jealous enough, and people get jealous in here when it comes to money.
In here, it is impossible to get rich, and yet if you do, you are not supposed to, so you are not going to be popular. Everything bad that happens to you, you deserve it, because you can afford it. But we all know you didn't work hard for it, you got lucky, so you still don't deserve it.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
Say, you work for the government, your colleague at work takes bribes, would you turn him in? Of course not. |
If I worked for the government, I would. My personal ethos leads me to tolerate favours and corrupt behaviour between private actors. However, the State must deal with each citizen equally. Any colleague working for the government who would favour others, especially for money, is a disgrace to the whole profession. He has nothing to do there.
Of course, I would only rat out for behaviours that are generally considered as "bad", and that are rare. If I was a cop, I wouldn't rat out someone who cancelled the ticket of his stepbrother's cousin or something, because its very common (we're finally taking steps against it  ). If someone thwarted an investigation against a suspect for money, I would rat him out in a heartbeat.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
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Also the lack of true bribes etc.. you have to understand, that we are very poor in small talk. I do mean it. It is difficult for us to talk to other people we don't know. That's also why, if you are in here, it's very find to make friends with anyone, because no one will just chat you up. NO ONE. If you strike a little conversation, you will get 'yes' or 'no', adn that's it.
SO, even in business dealings, it's all about not screwing up. don't say anything stupid. Offering bribes, even subtly, is a huge risk, must likely a major **** up. People are not suave. They don't have that talent to be smooth bribers. It's like nerd picking up a supermodel. VERY uncomfortable. So even if they wanted to, it's difficult. That's also why it's difficult for our knuckleheads to succeed in international stage of business, because the representation is usually not very good. I don't mean bribing. I mean just ... getting there and giving a good picture of yourself. We are just simple folks with no talking or communicating skills. Who do you think came up with IRC? A Finn did. Who do you think makes the most cell phones? Nokia does. Why do you think there are little less than 200 000 registered users in irc-gallery.fi (or something) where you have your pics etc online, and is online super community? Because we don't want to talk face to face with people we don't know. It's almost impossible. Try offering bribes? Jeesh! Talk about pressure..
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
I hate problems without solutions. |
It has a solution, but a long and difficult one. It requires a strong system of values among those who can act on society as a whole: mostly, politicians and jounralists. Politicians in particular can be very effective, because modern societies are very hierarchised, and when you give an order of "zero tolerance" to those who work for you (and make an example of all those who don't follow the order, and who are known to do so), you'll often have it. How many policemen do you think will make you pay for the ticket, if the punishment for any such offense would be a huge fine, and if it was enforced? Heck, even on Eventis, the people avoid to abuse the server because the punishment for doing so is huge and enforced: an anti-social behaviour that was to be trendy has been killed very quickly.
However, it's easier said than done. On the one hand, the politicians who decide a strong "anti-favour" policy must be especially exemplary to the others. And when an underling must be punished, he should definitely not escape punishment thanks to his money/connections (this is why Berlusconi's anti-corruption policies  were a failure, even though the result was still better than what Italy was before).
On the other hand, the new policies must have advantages for the population and for the honest servants. In the case of tickets, the advantage is fairly clear: you won't get harassed by a policeman giving you a speed ticket if you were under the limit, and any dangerous ass going way too fast will have his comeuppance in the end.
It's only once the people can feel the positive results that morals will evolve. Moralistic speeches can move the population for a short time, but if they remain only speeches, the population will continue business as usual, instead of becoming "suckers". If they see that practically nobody is out to make them into suckers, they'll most often enjoy the new order.
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02-04-2005 03:25
Being a politician is one of the most lucrative jobs here.
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