03-04-2005 00:11									#1
	Uk Dunce of the enviroment? Remove this text

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4399323.stm

and to think of all the 'holier than thou' speaches Tony Blair has been giving recently.........and all the critisism that the usa+china gets from the uk for its enviromental efforts.

I'm doing my bit(cycling instead of driving/recycling/energy saving in the home), but i guess the message is just not getting through to many people

	03-04-2005 00:31									#2
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Does anybody else here get the authoritarian heebie-jeebies at the following...

quote: "The policy package they have isn't working," Bryony Worthington, climate change campaigner for Friends of the Earth UK, told the BBC News website. "They need to make radical changes to it, a completely different approach, much more top-down management of emissions across the economy. "If they don't do that, there's every sign that these trends will continue and we will miss our Kyoto targets."

	03-04-2005 00:39									#3
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Does anybody else here get the authoritarian heebie-jeebies at the following...

Yes, i get them from all of your posts.

	03-04-2005 00:44									#4
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It just shows how unrealistic the Kyoto goals really are. A few eastern block countries can meet the goals by shutting down dirty communist era industries but the rest of the world just won't meet their goals. In any event it looks like the reductions made by the west will be off set many times over by massive new pollution in China. The fact that the third world & China weren't covered has always been Kyoto's fatal flaw.

	03-04-2005 00:51									#5
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Just shows how little you know about it, Oerdin.

	03-04-2005 00:54									#6
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Yeah Oerdin , everyone knows the best way to meet Kyoto regulations is to lie.

	03-04-2005 01:37									#7
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well its the first year that the levels have gone up, since britain signed up to the protocol. And i guess its a small rise(1.5%).

Still for what its worth, i think in the global view, each attempt to address our pressing enviromental situation, is better than just sitting there saying 'well it was never going to work so why bother' etc.

We have to try is all i can say on the subject. If it means trying and falling short then so be it. The other option is actually the most foolish as many scientists and governments are saying.

And a at general ludd the cheeky monkey

And DanS - i can't see why that bit might upset you, it means rich people wont be able to invest in cheap polluting energy to get richer(how much is enough?)

[but it was just from a friends of the earth person, so they dont carry much clout - just usefull as a sounding board on enviromental stuff i think is how the government views it]

Last edited by child of Thor on 03-04-2005 at 02:45

	03-04-2005 02:05									#8
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Kyoto Accord
Polution

	03-04-2005 03:01									#9
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Just shows how little you know about it, Oerdin.

Not even France will make it's targets. We had another thread on Kyoto a while back showing CO2 output by the industrialized world (flat to slowly growing), out put by old Soviet block (falling through the 90s but now stablized), third world output (largest in the world by far and exploding) and China (output graph looks like a tech stocks price during the height of the tech bubble).

	03-04-2005 03:04									#10
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Either we get a treaty which covers the third world to the same standards as the developed world or we forget about it. It just isn't worth wrecking our economy to see CO2 output climb in China as all of the heavy industry moves to the third world.

	03-04-2005 03:11									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Not even France will make it's targets.

What were France's targets? I only ask as France has a very low CO2 output already when compared to the UK and Germany due to its heavy use of nuclear power (75%+ of its energy is nuclear).

	03-04-2005 05:35									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Either we get a treaty which covers the third world to the same standards as the developed world or we forget about it. It just isn't worth wrecking our economy to see CO2 output climb in China as all of the heavy industry moves to the third world.

So if some guy is gonna shoot you, you think you should shoot yourself first?

	03-04-2005 06:56									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin What were France's targets? I only ask as France has a very low CO2 output already when compared to the UK and Germany due to its heavy use of nuclear power (75%+ of its energy is nuclear).

I thought France doesn't have to reduce CO2 output at all. Germany's target is -21 %. So far, we managed to reduce our output by ~16 %.

	03-04-2005 10:25									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin What were France's targets? I only ask as France has a very low CO2 output already when compared to the UK and Germany due to its heavy use of nuclear power (75%+ of its energy is nuclear).

Everyone's targets were to take their 1990 output levels and reduce it by 15% (might have been 10% I'd have to check the details).

Edit: The EU might have horse traded their obligations around to different members but the goal was a 15% reduction from 1990 levels for 1st world countries. The skyrocketing out put by the 3rd world (easily 2/3s of global out put and growing fast is completely untouched).

	03-04-2005 10:30									#15
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quote: Originally posted by kronic I thought France doesn't have to reduce CO2 output at all. Germany's target is -21 %. So far, we managed to reduce our output by ~16 %.

To be fair West Germany is more polluting then ever and the date of 1990 was chosen just so the shutting down of most eastern German industry could miraculously make Germany look good. Of course now the easy stuff has already been accounted for and Germany is faced with the need for real reductions; reductions which most scientists state they just won't meet.

	03-04-2005 17:25									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin What were France's targets? I only ask as France has a very low CO2 output already when compared to the UK and Germany due to its heavy use of nuclear power (75%+ of its energy is nuclear).

Yeah, it is the one advantage of nuclear power, however if one of those plants pops it's lid we're all in trouble. We need to get a move on and develop fusion

We need to move away from the car and towards public transportation systems, and also develop alternatives to flight (being able to get from one place to another by high speed train for example, which seems to be beginning in Europe).

And stop damn fuelguzzling cars or tax them to buggery...

	03-04-2005 18:17									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The skyrocketing out put by the 3rd world (easily 2/3s of global out put and growing fast is completely untouched).

The USA accounts for over 25% for the worlds CO2 pollution. Are you telling me that the rest of the first world combined only accounts for 8%? More than that, are you saying that doing nothing on 25% is fair on the grounds that a population 20 times the US is producing 3 times the pollution?

	03-04-2005 18:22									#18
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CO2 is not a big deal (there is no evidence that 'global warming' exists on a level that is dangerous to us)

their are other air pollutants and water polutants that are a much bigger deal (there is no question about the dangers of toxic substances..)

JM

	03-04-2005 18:34									#19
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So if some guy is gonna shoot you, you think you should shoot yourself first?

Only in the foot, and only after having removed it from the mouth first.

	04-04-2005 09:22									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison We need to move away from the car and towards public transportation systems, and also develop alternatives to flight (being able to get from one place to another by high speed train for example, which seems to be beginning in Europe). And stop damn fuelguzzling cars or tax them to buggery...

Add more insulation to homes, find some use for all that wasted heat coming out from generator plants, replace concrete slabs with trees, have homes install solar panels and/or wind turbines, etc.

	04-04-2005 13:58									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller their are other air pollutants and water polutants that are a much bigger deal (there is no question about the dangers of toxic substances..)

Aren't water pollutants a localized ecological threat?

I thought we went for CO2 in Kyoto precisely because atmospheric pollution is the kind that inherently has worldwide consequences.

	04-04-2005 14:01									#22
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I question the statement that CO2 is a serious pollutant

I mean compare with Acid Rain or the like, we can see the damage that does

what has CO2 done? maybe raised the temperature of the earth a bit, maybe not?

and the earth has been hotter in the past, so I dont' see the cause for concern

Jon Miller

	04-04-2005 14:15									#23
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Pollutants affected by Kyoto:

CO2
CH4
N2O
HFC
PFC
SF6

We talk about CO2 in this thread, but Kyoto is about all main human-made sources of atmospheric pollution, that can lead to global warming.

Last time we had a thread about Kyoto, btw, Oerdin showed us charts that showed how human activity, despite creating only a small part of these materials, offset the natural balance between the atmosphere and surface.

	04-04-2005 14:26									#24
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SF6? Do we put out much of that?!

	04-04-2005 14:35									#25
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Dunno, but it's part of the agreement.

Actually, the countries must reduce their emissions that are calculated in CO2-equivalent. So, any country that manages to significantly reduce methane will get a big boost to its rating (I dunno to what extent SF6 pollutes the atmosphere, as my chemical knowledge sucks donkey balls)

	04-04-2005 14:55									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison SF6? Do we put out much of that?!

Its weighting is in the tens of thousands CO2 equivalent, but even then its not even 1% of greenhouse emissions.

	04-04-2005 18:01									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin The USA accounts for over 25% for the worlds CO2 pollution. Are you telling me that the rest of the first world combined only accounts for 8%? More than that, are you saying that doing nothing on 25% is fair on the grounds that a population 20 times the US is producing 3 times the pollution?

There's another thread floating around from a month or two back in which I linked several great articels which had graphs of greenhouse gas production by major regions. The US and EU each produced something like 15% and their output was just barely rising. China's output was expoding as was the third world.

	05-04-2005 03:20									#28
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4407421.stm - the crazyness continues

I can understand the arguments along the lines of 'why should we destroy our economy when others will take no notice'etc.

The problem i have with this arguement is that the countries that can do something should. They will most likely be the leading industrial and economic countries in the world(the west basicaly).
And part of china's pollution problem can be lain at our feet as well. Where is china's economic growth coming from? much of the recent rise is because western companies have taken their business to china, to increase their profits.

I think we should stand up in the world and lead by example, not hide our heads in the sand pointing(innacurate) fingers at 'them'.

And the bottom line is this, unless we make that enviromental stand(and change the way we live, which isn't that uncomfortable), then we are dooming our children(yes its that close) to live in a world with soaring skin cancer rates(you let your kids go play down the beach with no sun-screen these days and see what happens), riseing sea levels and mass deforestation.

And for the finacial types, that see money as the be all and end all - money is only good if you have stuff worth spending it on. When in a toxic desert i doubt it will do you any relative good.

man we are so weak to let this happen, to the only one good planet we have. think of your kids and your grandchildren, what world do you want to leave them, what legacy, how shall we be remembered?

If your answer is 'screw them, i'm alright' then indeed i hope you get the skin cancer or get flooded

	05-04-2005 04:31									#29
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but we only have so many resources to fight pollution

and the evidence I have seen is not conclusive relating to CO2 being a major issue

but polluting our water sources and acid rain are

JM

	06-04-2005 16:00									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller but we only have so many resources to fight pollution and the evidence I have seen is not conclusive relating to CO2 being a major issue but polluting our water sources and acid rain are JM

Sorry Jon, my last rant( ) was about all the types of enviromental damage we do, not just CO2 emmisions.

I just think we are being incredibly dumb if we just do nothing.
Most of the objections come from the financial cost arguements. But thats just not acceptable, not when governments are perfectly happy to spend Billions on weapons and or activities that make the enviromental situation worse(deforestation etc).
So the financial arguement is BS i believe - we've got the money to do it, just not the will.
Still that's where its up to us to force our politicians to do something about it imho.