04-04-2005 02:41									#1
	How many CCTV cameras are you caught on each day? Inflate your Upload Space

I heard on the news or something that the UK had 10% of all the CCTV cameras in the world, and there seem to be security cameras all over the place.

On an average day,

4 cameras outside shop on the way to work
1 on the train station,
1 at least, when I change train,
1 or 2 if I get on one of the new trains
2 leaving the station
6 between my entrance to work and my department

So thats 15 different tapes each day, and then I havent even been to the pub or the shops. Not to mention I get taped on the same cameras if I come back home the same way.

I guess some of the cameras might be fake ones, and there may well be other cameras I dont even know Ive been caught on.....

so.....is this normal? I live in nice safe suburbs so the numbers not quite as high as it might be, but work and trains are both pretty high security

	04-04-2005 02:43									#2
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caught doing what?

	04-04-2005 02:45									#3
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Probably scratching his balls.

	04-04-2005 02:54									#5
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Zero.

	04-04-2005 03:06									#6
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On an average day, which means going round campus then into the city for a bit of window shopping? Easily ten or more.

	04-04-2005 04:11									#7
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None, I hope, unless I visit a bank. (Croatia)

	04-04-2005 08:52									#8
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CCTV camera are every where in California. At ATMs, at stores, at banks, in parking garages, one the freeways (so tv stations can show pictures of traffic flows), at stop lights (to catch people who run the light), and in a bunch of other places I can't think of right now.

	04-04-2005 10:23									#9
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yo azz.

	04-04-2005 12:43									#10
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None.

I'm amazed you guys don't have a problem with them but go ballistic with even the smallest notion of introducing id cards. Very weird..

	04-04-2005 14:11									#11
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CCTV cameras are actually useful in preventing crime though.

	04-04-2005 14:13									#12
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We have many, many cameras where I work. But they aren't monitored (just recorded). And no one ever looks at them unless there has been a crime.

	04-04-2005 14:25									#13
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH CCTV cameras are actually useful in preventing crime though.

I don't know...
It only prevents crime when people think they would be caught afterwards. I doubt anyone is watching over all those thousands of cameras or that any algorithms are in place evaluating for unusualness.

	04-04-2005 14:27									#14
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH CCTV cameras are actually useful in preventing crime though.

So is putting everyone in jail.
I think all it really does is relocate (more serious) crime and catch a few drunks.

	04-04-2005 14:29									#15
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I'm not aware of any CCTV on my daily walk in Stuttgart (though I'm sure there are plenty of CCTV cameras in the subway, which I haven't bothered to spot yet).

In the Parisian mass transit, CCTV is a plague. They are plentiful in stations, and they are in every frigging bus

	04-04-2005 15:25									#16
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quote: Originally posted by alva So is putting everyone in jail. I think all it really does is relocate (more serious) crime and catch a few drunks.

It's not got much to do with serious crime. It prevents minor crime like mugging, vandaism etc.

I'm only really going by personal experience but our town center seems much safer since they put it in. Of course not all areas have it.

I do have some concerns about it obviously but not as many as I do about ID cards and at least there is a benefit. There's still no possible benefit for ID cards.

Incidently this UK ID card thing is a total cash cow. They are trying to use cutting edge biometric data on the cards, nothing's ever been done on this scale and industry experts seem to be suggesting the governement have totally underestimated the security costs some analysts have suggested it could cost us £20 billion not the current £4 billion estimate. Total waste of money even if it is 'only' 4 billion.

	04-04-2005 15:29									#17
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and no prizes for guessing who's picking up the tab for this 'cutting edge' technology, vote labour etc. :/

	04-04-2005 15:33									#18
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH It's not got much to do with serious crime. It prevents minor crime like mugging, vandaism etc. I'm only really going by personal experience but our town center seems much safer since they put it in. Of course not all areas have it.

Sure, it prevents crime where cameras are positioned and yes, People prabably do feel safer.

I don't want them though.

	04-04-2005 15:34									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

Government IT projects are notoriously bad, overrun in time, cost, and often aren't completed. Five times the budget estimate wouldn't be unusual. Them doing anything cutting edge is crazy.

And yet they are still better than the racist old peoples party.

	04-04-2005 15:45									#20
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quote: I'm amazed you guys don't have a problem with them but go ballistic with even the smallest notion of introducing id cards. Very weird..

CCTV cameras are generally only reviewed when a crime or activity of interest has been commited - no-one unless they are total losers is going to traul through millions of hours of video with no express objective. CCTV cameras are pretty much stand alone records - there is no database of all the cameras you are on, and no-one could find out which cameras you are popping up on just by being given your name or photo.

Compare to ID cards which could lead to on-demand requests of you without cause, and do constitute a national database of information on a person.

	04-04-2005 16:05									#21
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Combined with cell-phone(doesn't even need to be a GPS one) data they do know where you've been all day long, at least with ID cards you know when they asked for it (which never happens).

Let's not get into a ID card debate though, we only recently did that, no point in simply restating everything we said last time. Not that, that has ever stopped us in the past.

	04-04-2005 16:26									#22
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quote: Originally posted by alva Combined with cell-phone(doesn't even need to be a GPS one) data they do know where you've been all day long, at least with ID cards you know when they asked for it (which never happens).

Nononono.

These aren't just ID cards! They are ID cards with biometric data about you stored on big databases that various goverment departments can access - who exactly will have access is very sketchy.

And you can't really follow people on CCTV all day. It's totally impractical, the quality is terrible and there's no central management of them.

	04-04-2005 16:27									#23
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If you don't want the gov't to know where you are you have to never buy anything on a card, not own a phone and wear a hat.

	04-04-2005 16:35									#24
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I never said I cared but I don't go ballistic about ID cards either. Again, had them for al my life and asked once IIRC to show it(young, long hair, late at night,robbery taken place near us and we fitted the description)

quote: who exactly will have access is very sketchy.

That of course is something that needs to be very clear, goes without saying IMO.

	04-04-2005 16:38									#25
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btw, you're not the first:
Bosnia beat you to it, even Bulgaria did so too.

http://europa.eu.int/idabc/en/document/1854/355

http://europa.eu.int/idabc/en/document/3496/347

	04-04-2005 16:42									#26
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quote: Originally posted by alva I never said I cared but I don't go ballistic about ID cards either. Again, had them for al my life and asked once IIRC to show it(young, long hair, late at night,robbery taken place near us and we fitted the description

And there's no reason you should have to carry something like that around with you if you don't want to.

	04-04-2005 16:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by alva I never said I cared but I don't go ballistic about ID cards either. Again, had them for al my life and asked once IIRC to show it(young, long hair, late at night,robbery taken place near us and we fitted the description) quote: who exactly will have access is very sketchy. That of course is something that needs to be very clear, goes without saying IMO.

At the moment it isn't clear at all. That plus the unproven technology, security concerns and the immense cost would be enough to be against it even if there was a need for them which their isn't.

	04-04-2005 16:44									#28
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quote: Originally posted by alva btw, you're not the first: Bosnia beat you to it, even Bulgaria did so too. http://europa.eu.int/idabc/en/document/1854/355 http://europa.eu.int/idabc/en/document/3496/347

It's not just fingerprints, DNA and retina info as well on ours.

And the numbers are way more than those countries. 20 times the scale which has huge implications for the database. It's 20 times the records with much more data.

	04-04-2005 17:05									#29
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And there's no reason you should have to carry something like that around with you if you don't want to.

To be honest KH, we just see and use it as a "one cards fits all".
Instead of using driver licenses, we just use this one with the added bonus of it being standardised thoughout.
We know compagnies and gouverment bodies will accept it and they know we have one.

In a couple of years we'll be able to use it over the internet as well, though not much info has been given about it.

	04-04-2005 17:08									#30
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH It's not just fingerprints, DNA and retina info as well on ours. And the numbers are way more than those countries. 20 times the scale which has huge implications for the database. It's 20 times the records with much more data.

Hmm, that is taking it to a whole different level, that's for sure.

I don't mind fingerprints et all for first time offenders but not for "innocent" people.