05-06-2005 09:58									#151
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quote: And what about the players who think cocaine and pot help them get into the game.

so let them think. they are still wrong.

speed on the other hand, might get them up.

quote: Who cares if steroids improve performance. So can a lot of other drugs. If it ain't against the rules, it ain't cheating. US law has nothing to do with baseball's rules.

actually it does, since national laws supercede any private enterprises law.

	05-06-2005 10:03									#152
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quote: so let them think. they are still wrong.

Pot may calm a player down if he is too wound up.

quote: speed on the other hand, might get them up.

So... performance enhancing, yes? Add to that that a great number of players used them in the 50s and 60s (including Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays).

quote: actually it does, since national laws supercede any private enterprises law.

No.. cheating is violating the rules of the game. Not violating the law.

See, as a good lawyer, I make you say indefensible things. How can national law determine 'cheating'? And if it CAN, then you admit that using cocaine and pot is cheating, even if it decreases performance, because, after all "national law supercede any private enterprises law".

Thanks for playing, hope you enjoy your parting gifts.

	05-06-2005 10:19									#153
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I concede your point about Ortiz making as DH, since there really is no one else comparable to him playing that position exclusively. Even with diminished numbers, he is bar none the best DH in the league. However, my inability to name a steady DH off hand should speak to the overall quality of the position across the American League.

According to what I have read about Giambi's steroid use, btw, he was off of steroids by mid-2003. That means his homeruns in the ALCS that year were more legit than his MVP season. And of course Imran has noted that steroids were not illegal in the majors at the time, even with a ban and testing in the minors. Rather inconsistent, that: play good baseball to make the bigs, take steroids to stay there.

	05-06-2005 10:21									#154
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quote: I concede your point about Ortiz making as DH, since there really is no one else comparable to him playing that position exclusively. Even with diminished numbers, he is bar none the best DH in the league. However, my inability to name a steady DH off hand should speak to the overall quality of the position across the American League.

Exactly. The point I was making is that in the 'DH' position Ortiz is it. Hell, if he was only a 1B, he'd be it, because the 1B position in the AL has sucked this year.

quote: Rather inconsistent, that: play good baseball to make the bigs, take steroids to stay there.

It's because of the MLBPA. The owners were willing to deal with steroids, but the players had to be shoved there.

	05-06-2005 10:21									#155
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quote: Pot may calm a player down if he is too wound up.

you ever smoke pot?

quote: So... performance enhancing, yes? Add to that that a great number of players used them in the 50s and 60s (including Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays).

yeah, greenies, and they are also performance enhacing and should not be allowed

quote: No.. cheating is violating the rules of the game. Not violating the law. See, as a good lawyer, I make you say indefensible things. How can national law determine 'cheating'? And if it CAN, then you admit that using cocaine and pot is cheating, even if it decreases performance, because, after all "national law supercede any private enterprises law".

national law doesnt determine cheating - it makes things illegal. then, using illegal things to give yourself an edge, now thats cheating? why? BECAUSE ITS ILLEGAL, and using it to gain and edge in a sport, is CHEATING.

oh, and generaly, cheating is defined as something that gives you an unfair advantage, not an unfair disadvantage. which makes coke and pot illegal, but not cheating.

case in point.

	05-06-2005 10:30									#156
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quote: you ever smoke pot?

No, but some have claimed that it can calm people down. I'm sure Berz has smoked some and he's made the claim on occasion.

quote: using illegal things to give yourself an edge, now thats cheating? why? BECAUSE ITS ILLEGAL, and using it to gain and edge in a sport, is CHEATING.

No, sorry, you're wrong. It isn't cheating unless it is against the rules of the game.

quote: cheating is defined as something that gives you an unfair advantage

No, it is defined as violating the rules deliberately.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cheating

quote: 2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.

Btw, all the other definitions there could apply to cocaine/pot as well as steroids, and you've said cocaine/pot are not cheating.

	05-06-2005 10:36									#157
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Check out this score from NCAA baseball today:

Miami (OH) 35
Quinnipiac 8

Jesus!

http://www.ncaasports.com/baseball/...refresh_rate=60

	05-06-2005 11:05									#158
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I am ashamed on behalf of my home state.

The Nutmeg state will not suffer this failure.

	05-06-2005 11:11									#159
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You are right about David Ortiz being bar none the best DH in the league, but I would disagree with the statement that Ortiz would be the best hitting first baseman.

Take a look at Mike Sweeney's numbers:
BA: .302
HR: 9
RBI: 36

And now David Ortiz:
BA: .289
HR: 13
RBI: 44

Comparable numbers, with the edge obviously with Ortiz. However, one has to include Sweeney's defensive prowess in giving him the edge of Ortiz at a hypothetical first base battle.

That said, Sweeney is probably the only first baseman in the AL actually doing anything above replacement this season. The AL is lucky the Royals stupidly chose not to go over to the NL

	05-06-2005 11:18									#160
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Well, I don't know if Sweeney's defense can make up an almost 100 point OPS edge for Ortiz .

Ortiz's OPS is actually .946, which isn't that bad. It is below his .983 last year, but it is early.

Now, you would have had a better case if you brought up Teixeira or Sexson (both having better seasons than Sweeney) . However, all three are not in the big market teams, so they won't get Ortiz (who is hitting better than all of 'em).

quote: Sweeney is probably the only first baseman in the AL actually doing anything above replacement this season

Well, like stated, Teixeira and Sexson are actually doing better than Sweeney. And Tino Martinez isn't that far behind Sexson at all, with only .005 in OPS seperating them.

	05-06-2005 11:24									#161
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How could I have forgotten about Teixera? I need to start taking advantage of my father's XM Satellite radio. And looking at his numbers currently, they are comparable to Sweeney's. Hell, they're almost exactly the same.

As for Sexson, I know he is not a hit-for-average guy, but .243? Sure, his OPS is decent, but an average below .270 for a power guy is unacceptable in my books.

	05-06-2005 12:04									#162
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Batting average is an irrelevent number. It's useless really. OPS is the number that matters, and it's component parts, OBP and SLG. Sexson has a very good OPS and I'd take him over Sweeney, especially when you look at Sexson's home park.

I NEVER evaluate a player on his batting average. I mean the point is getting on base, so OPS is more important, and power, so SLG is more important.

I'll take a .220 hitter with a .900 OPS over a .270 hitter with a .750 OPS any day of the week.

	05-06-2005 14:55									#163
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quote: No, but some have claimed that it can calm people down. I'm sure Berz has smoked some and he's made the claim on occasion.

well if you did, then you would know that it makes you slower, not exaclty something you want.

quote: No, sorry, you're wrong. It isn't cheating unless it is against the rules of the game.

yes it is cheating, since it is ILLEGAL in the US

quote: Btw, all the other definitions there could apply to cocaine/pot as well as steroids, and you've said cocaine/pot are not cheating.

since it doenst give you an edge, its not cheating. and your little definition, have you ever seen anyone cheat at cards to make himserlf worse off? thats what i thought. implicit is the idea that it gives you a better position then before.

	05-06-2005 20:00									#164
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Richie Sexson has a 2:1 strikeout to walk ratio, which approaches Mark Bellhorn like levels of futility. If you cannot make contact above league average, what the hell good are you?

	05-06-2005 20:49									#165
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quote: yes it is cheating, since it is ILLEGAL in the US

Nope, sorry. If cheating means it is illegal in the US, then cocaine and pot use are cheating. What, they aren't performance enhancing? Where in "it is ILLEGAL in the US" does 'performance enhancing' come in?

And how does that change baseball's rules?

quote: since it doenst give you an edge, its not cheating.

You said it's cheating because it is illegal, you keep saying that. And what if it does give the player an edge? What if he thinks it does and in his brain it makes him play better?

quote: have you ever seen anyone cheat at cards to make himserlf worse off? thats what i thought. implicit is the idea that it gives you a better position then before.

Yes... but how does 'better position than before' = 'unfair advantage'? It doesn't. Cheating is breaking the rules and that's it.

quote: Richie Sexson has a 2:1 strikeout to walk ratio, which approaches Mark Bellhorn like levels of futility. If you cannot make contact above league average, what the hell good are you?

When you have a .367 OBP and a .517 SLG, leading to a .884 OPS, VERY Hell of good. Who gives a damn about making contact if you can get on base and hit with power? Hell, Sexson gets on base more than Sweeney does, even with his bad batting average. Sexson has more walks than any other AL 1B out there.

I wouldn't mind having him on my team.

	05-06-2005 21:12									#166
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strikeouts are overrated as a negative stat.

rather a strikeout than a weakly hit doubleplay grounder.

rather a minimum 3 pitch at bat than a first pitch flyout.

Bad yes, but its a mistake to always consider a strikeout an uproductive at bat. Work the pitch count.

Especially if they have a high slugg%, ie Adam dunn. I'd take his strikeouts in a heartbeat for his power.

	05-06-2005 22:01									#167
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quote: You said it's cheating because it is illegal, you keep saying that. And what if it does give the player an edge? What if he thinks it does and in his brain it makes him play better?

for the second time, who cares what the player thinks. if he thinks wrong, hes still wrong.

quote: Yes... but how does 'better position than before' = 'unfair advantage'? It doesn't. Cheating is breaking the rules and that's it.

because you get that better position than before by giving yourself an unfair advantage by cheating. illegal in the US + gives you a performance boost = cheating.

	05-06-2005 22:05									#168
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I have to go along with Imran...

Cheating is breaking the RULES of the GAME

Until baseball took the step to actually make steroids and other body building drugs illegal OFFICIALLY in the rules of baseball... you can't consider any that used them prior to that cheaters. You can claim they broke the laws of the United States... but they did not cheat. Baseball has themselves to blame... by not specifically having a rule against them... they condoned their use.

	05-06-2005 22:47									#169
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That seems like a weak argument to me, Ming. Do they have a specific rule prohibiting a player from killing an opponent who's on a roll scoring points in a game? I'm not saying the two offenses are comparable, but just because you don't have a specific rule against some practice, it doesn't automatically follow you aren't cheating. Another example would be having someone phone in a bomb threat causing the stadium to be evacuated because your team is losing. I'm sure there's no specific baseball rule against that either, but it'd still be cheating.

	05-06-2005 23:06									#170
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How can you break a rule when there is no rule.

EVERY OTHER major sport had a rules against their use. Baseball continued to "look the other way" and didn't actually put a rule in place until it was pretty much crammed down their throat. How can it be cheating when the owners allowed it?

	05-06-2005 23:16									#171
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yeah winston, you made some goods points there.

	05-06-2005 23:19									#172
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While Winston provides a different perspective... look at this way... The owners didn't encourage people to call in bomb threats... and if a player tried or actually killed somebody, there are rules against that and HAVE been enforced by MLB. By not having a rule, and not testing for it, while EVERY MAJOR SPORTS LEAGUE OR FEDERATION was, they were telling their players that they didn't care. While some may find it wrong, the players weren't cheating.

	05-06-2005 23:25									#173
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how does that refute what winston said?

	06-06-2005 00:03									#174
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How does what winston say refute what I said...

The situations he points out are TOTALLY different than the situation being discussed.

	06-06-2005 00:14									#175
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winston doesnt need to refute what you said, since he refuted what imran said. it goes in order. now its your turn to refute.

	06-06-2005 01:27									#176
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I think there are rules against striking another player. If anything, killing would be against the rules as Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

I don't think you can say that because something is illegal, that it makes it cheating. Say Imran were playing a game "Who Can Smoke the most Pot?" Would it be right to say we are both cheating?

Anyway, Washington is now First in War, First in Peace, and First in the NL East!

The Nats just completes a sweep over the Marlins with the Marlins having their Ace on the mound. It being this late in the season, I don't think you can just say the Nats are overachieving.

	06-06-2005 02:17									#177
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quote: I don't think you can say that because something is illegal, that it makes it cheating. Say Imran were playing a game "Who Can Smoke the most Pot?" Would it be right to say we are both cheating?

only if you found an illegal way to smoke more then imran and thus gain an unfair advantage.

	06-06-2005 02:50									#178
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"
only if you found an illegal way to smoke more then imran and thus gain an unfair advantage."

But smoking is already illegal.

Games can include legal and illegeal activity, and you can't say it is cheating just because it is illegal.

	06-06-2005 02:56									#179
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Not to mention that this is an international game, with 81 games played out of the US per year. US laws, Canadian laws, NAFTA, UN, Geneva, what should apply?

	06-06-2005 03:20									#180
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It's not a question of what laws should apply, but whether something goes against the spirit of sportsmanship. Just because an act isn't specifically mentioned in the official baseball rules, it doesn't mean it's not cheating.

A player stripping butt-naked during a football game, leaving his opponents and fellow players equally baffled, snatching the ball and scoring in an empty net - may not be against any specific football rule, but it's still cheating because it's un-sportsmanlike.

No matter how much the crowds will be cheering.