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Ljube
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Belgrade
May 2003
time: 06:34
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I would normally agree in a single player game. I would also agree in a PBEM. However, this game is do or die. We must keep building units if we want to maintain our lead. My goal is to have a 10 shield per turn KBH which can crank out a horse each 3 turns. Hence I don't see a settler there.
Bloodview is seen as a unit pop-rushing factory. This means Bloodview can produce a unit every 5 turns, provided we pop rush the remaining 10 turns worth of production. Bloodview can insert something, say a worker every now and then to alleviate the happiness problem.
Production in FA has already been changed from spear to settler to meet our pressing needs. After all, FA was planned as a settler factory.
Ta-Tu has very low shield potential and no barracks. Hence Ta-Tu is not seen as a unit building city. If it can't build units, it must build something which can help our military. That something is a settler. I understand it seems a very poor choice at the moment, but our situation is so desperate we must resort to desperate and very unpopular measures. We are already paying 4 gold for military maintenance. Delaying a settler now would cause further strain on our already overstretched budget.
EDIT: I'm not confronting either rob or bongo. I am just stating my opinion with what I think are arguments in favour of that opinion. I would also like to hear rob's plans for Ta-Tu if we build barracks and not settler. How soon can Ta-Tu become a military factory?
Last edited by Ljube on 04-05-2005 at 15:03
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bongo
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TRBNGR
Sep 1999
time: 06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko
I would normally agree in a single player game. I would also agree in a PBEM. However, this game is do or die... |
Well, it *is* do or die, problem is that we need to both expand *and* crank out units.
My "Balanced Expansion Strategy" usually works like this:
Basically I want to keep each city as close as possible to rioting with as few entertainers as possible(I use them if I have to but only in small numbers and for short periods of time). Luxuries, military police, improvements and wonders all add up to give each city its own max-limit. When cities grow beyond that you have to make adjustments, if adjustments is too expensive/impractical you should consider building a worker/settler, even in the dedicated unit-building cities. I also make a point of letting settler/worker-pump be as big as possible. A 6-turn settler pum contribute more to your empire when oscillating between 5-6 than between 3-4.
With the current luxuries, KBH needs one more unit for MP when it reaches size 5. Then we have to decide if we avoid the growth-problem by stopping growth, or time a settler/worker when KBH reaches size 6.
Of course, an additional luxury will push KBHs pop-limit to 6
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Rcoutme2
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Massachusetts
Sep 2004
time: 05:34
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As I understood my discussions with our great Khan, KBH would continue to build units until it was just about to go to size 6. The settler coming from there would be timed to be built either the turn that it goes to size 6 or as near to it (w/o going over) as possible.
Bloodview does not get any more shield output than Ta-Tu. Ta-Tu will be size 3 in 4 turns. We can then put the next laborer on the forest and likely get 4 spt. This can be used as seems fitting (either archers or horsemen).
Pop rushing, although sometimes nice, causes its share of problems since we would lose the cash that the laborer (now whipped) would have generated. We also end up with 20 turns of extra unhappiness in that city. So pop-rushing in Bloodview is a one-time bonus and then we would be forced to start from scratch with that city (likely including needing a garrison unit to keep the populous happy).
All of these have to be compared to the military requirements. I will need a goal of units for a set date in order to give specific advice (since that would be the only way for me to make the precise calculations).
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Rcoutme2
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Massachusetts
Sep 2004
time: 05:34
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2190 BC
KBH: this city will grow in 2 turns and build a unit in two turns. For the next 20 turns it should build 5 units, then build a spearman and settler. This will give it time to grow to exactly 6 and then reduce to size 4.
The other possibility for this city is to finish the current unit and then build the Statue of Zeus in 20 turns. The shield output in units for SoZ will pay for itself in 25 turns. All the other units that come from it are bonus.
FA: assuming that we give the oasis when it grows (in 2 turns); spear in 2--grow in 2; grow in 5; grow in 10 or 20. If, on second growth, the shield is not lost to corruption, settler (started after spear) will come in 7 turns (unless we can move a laborer to get yet 1 more shield near the end in which case we get it in 6). If shield is lost, laborer will take 10 turns after second growth for a total of 12 or 15 turns.
Tatu: builds in 1 turn, switch to unit. grows in 3 turns then grows in 20. unit 1 done 9 turns after start, unit 2+ done 8 turns after start.
Bloodview: currently getting 2 spt growth in 4. This gives net 10 shields. After growth we will have to use the gold for happiness. This gives growth in 7. Meanwhile, we will get 21 shields during that time, giving us the unit. Thus we will take 11 turns to build a unit, after which we will likely take 10 turns per unit. It will take 17 turns to produce a settler group @ 3 spt.
Bokhara: 3 turns to grow currently getting 3spt (with 9 shields already saved up). This city will take 10 or 20 more turns to grow again (depending upon irrigation). During that time it will yeild either 4 spt or 3 spt.
Assuming 4 spt: 3 turns for unit, then 8 for follow units
Assuming 3 spt: 4 turns for unit, 10 for follow units.
If a settler group is produced, it will take 13 turns @ 4spt or 17 turns @ 3 spt. (Note: a settler group is a spearman and a settler)
Workers:
George to build road to the bards.
Mildred: Build road to oasis (7 total turns), then build mine on oasis (6 more turns).
Harry to build road 8-8 of Ta-Tu. 2 turns to get to start. 3 turns to build the first road. One slave can reach that square in exactly 5 turns, so Harry and slave can build next road in two more turns...thus 11 turns for road to square just south of city site.
Bob: finishes irrigation in 3 turns. Build road in 3 turns. Help where needed after or build mine direction 7 (the sugar) of Ta-Tu.
2nd Slave: Build mine on oasis or sugar or help where useful.
Last edited by Rcoutme2 on 06-05-2005 at 13:54
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Rcoutme2
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Massachusetts
Sep 2004
time: 05:34
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The cost/benefit analysis of building things 40 turns out:
KBH: in 2 turns, the city will produce 10 spt. If we produce only units (i.e. horsemen or swordsmen) we will get 6 2/3 in 20 turns. If we produce units and then a settler group (including the spearman) we will get 5 units and the settler group. If we produce Statue of Zeus, we will finish in 20 turns.
Next: if we produce still only units, we will get another 6 2/3 (I think) horses for a total of 13 after 40 turns. If we produce the 5 + settler group, it will then take us 10 turns to get to 10 spt, thus we will get either SoZ in 22 turns (for a total of 42 turns) or 6 units for a total of 11 units and a settler group. If we build SoZ, the wonder will build 4 AC's in the next 20 turns and we will have the option of another 6 2/3 units or building a settler group and getting 4 units.
Bloodview: If we produce only units, in 40 turns we will likely get 4 units. If we produce a settler group (spear and settler) after the current unit (11 turns), we will get the settler group produced in 17 turns bringing us to 28 turns. We may be able to build one more unit within 40 turns. Giving 2 units and a settler group. Note that this city has an irrigate floodplain which allows it to grow to size 3 in 7 turns instead of 10 turns.
Bokhara: If we produce only units, we will get 5 units (probably--note this assumes 4 spt after growth). If we produce a settler group right after the current unit is finished, we will produce 3 units and a settler group.
Now...here is the kicker: each settler group will, presumably, produce a city. Each city produced will (likely) get 1 spt for 10 turns, then (probably) 2 spt. Thus each of these cities can produce 1 unit in 20 turns (or 1 spearman to go with settlers in 15 turns). After the first unit is built, it will take 15 turns for each follow-on unit. Furthermore, each city will give us 5 gpt (minimum) since it will support 4 units and give 1 gpt regardless of corruption.
Now...for KBH, the SG (Settler Group) would be finished in 22 turns. so...at the end of 40 turns we may get +1 unit (or definately +1 spear).
For Bloodview, we would be > 1/2 way to a unit (or nearly done with a spear). Note that the irrigated floodplain may alter the speed of this production.
For Bokhara, we would produce the SG in 16 turns, so we would be +1 unit (at least)
I am not advocating any plan. I am only posting this data for planning purposes.
KBH can likely grow w/o happiness problems. Bokhara can grow at least 1 w/o happiness problems. Bloodview can grow 1 only if the laborer is placed on gold. Each city can grow 1 more if an additional garrison unit acts as an MP.
Last edited by Rcoutme2 on 06-05-2005 at 20:26
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Rcoutme2
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Massachusetts
Sep 2004
time: 05:34
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1870 BC
Actionable item next turn: Bloodview should have the laborer who is working the floodplain switch to the roaded plains (assuming nobody is sick) so that the settler will be finished 1 turn earlier.
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Rcoutme2
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Massachusetts
Sep 2004
time: 05:34
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1325 BC--
Note that KBH remains stagnant since the 15 shields is a perfect fit (along with our happiness) for building swords and horses.
The worker building (I assume) a road on the sugar near Ta-Tu is not going to add anything to our empire. Sugar provides 1 gpt (as does the river) so adding a road gives +1 gpt, despotism -1 gpt. A mine is the only improvement on the sugar that will matter for the moment.
Bloodhue (I hope) should have switched the laborer to grassland (from forest) as only 1 shield is needed to finish the barracks.
Filious Ala: Next turn the laborer should be moved from irrigated floodplains to irrigated plains. This will yeild +1 shield per turn and the population growth will continue in 1 turn anyways.
I did not update the other cities since no action is needed and no lessons were to be learned from them.
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Rcoutme2
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Massachusetts
Sep 2004
time: 05:34
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Actually, whichever was done, it is too late to change it, but good call. I forgot that the water was a lake.
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Rcoutme2
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Massachusetts
Sep 2004
time: 05:34
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1175 BC
Lesson in micromanagement:
If you have 3 luxuries hooked up to a city and all your people are only content, DO NOT REMOVE any troops from the city without compensating by moving a laborer (either to more cash, science, taxes or entertainment)
The Great Khan missed this when asked to move (I presume) the Medieval Infantry on towards the battles. Thus we lose a full turn from Bloodview.
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Rcoutme2
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Massachusetts
Sep 2004
time: 05:34
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Lortbekk
 Attachment: lortbekk.jpg
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).
Last edited by Rcoutme2 on 30-08-2005 at 22:39
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Rcoutme2
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Massachusetts
Sep 2004
time: 05:34
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Fort Napster:
Attachment: fort napster.jpg
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).
Last edited by Rcoutme2 on 30-08-2005 at 22:40
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Rcoutme2
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Massachusetts
Sep 2004
time: 05:34
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Quickie final thoughts before 1150 is played:
1. Place a unit in Bloodview
2. Bloodhue--may want to switch to an archer as an mp. This would allow the move of a laborer to shielded grass, causing the city to grow faster.
3. Furnace: as stated before, the laborer should go on shielded grass so that when the city grows, we don't lose a possible extra shield.
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Rcoutme2
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Massachusetts
Sep 2004
time: 05:34
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The following cities gain only 1spt/1gpt:
Bloodfort, The Furnace, Red River, Lortbekk, Fort Napster
Currently, Bloodhue and Bloodview gain 2spt/gpt.
These cities should be considered for scientist duty until we have finished Chivalry.
Edit: Starvation is not a problem. People who contribute nothing should not eat...
Last edited by Rcoutme2 on 22-08-2005 at 23:33
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Rcoutme2
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Massachusetts
Sep 2004
time: 05:34
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As many know, we face a corruption problem. That is not bad news, as the corruption is mainly due to our expansion and only affects cities far away from our capital. We will, however, need to address the problem soon. Whether we switch to Monarchy or Feudalism, the corruption will be 1/3 less than in Despotism. We need to switch BEFORE we finish Knights Templar (or any other militaristic or expansionist Great Wonder) as either of these will trigger our Golden Age. See edit below
My proposal is as follows:
We should build a marketplace in KBH. This will allow (once Chivalry is researched) for considerably more cash from this city. That cash can be used for upgrades and troop support.
After we build the marketplace in KBH we can begin the prebuilds for KT. Once we finish researching Chivalry (since we have a tech deal with A-M--otherwise I would recommend doing it earlier) we should switch governments to either Monarchy or Feudalism. This is not the place to discuss the pro's and con's of those, so I will leave that to the government thread.
When we finish our period of Anarchy, we can begin to upgrade horsemen to Keshiks--but not before! We must not risk having a GA in Despotism as our opponents will revel in such a blunder. We should delay the switch because we currently lack the population to exploit either new government and because we would like to know (rather than suspect) that the Lost Boys and Desolation Row are fighting each other. This won't happen for a while, so the delay can be used.
On the point of tile improvement. We produced the Statue of Zeus by using up 3 workers in population expansion for the capital. Those units were supposed to be replaced by now. Several concerns prevented that, but we need them badly and should cease production of any settlers and build those workers instead. We need tile improvements more than we need corrupt cities.
Future: We are currently the 'block bullies' and the other nations surely know this. We MUST finish with Euphorica and then pull back. This will allow the others a supposed 'breathing room' period. While they breathe sighs of relief, we build up their doom.  We should begin, at that point, preparing battle plans, correcting our corruption problems and getting ready to finish the game.
We will improve infrastructure (and alter some for the 'new' government systems), build a Forbidden Palace and work on the Knights Templar GW. Any cities that are totally corrupt will be switched from laborers (not useful anyways) to scientists until Chivalry, and then to taxmen. The production in these cities should be Wealth as it takes too long for these cities to build anything anyways.
Edit: Paddy did playtesting and two Militaristic wonders will NOT trigger a Golden Age (whew!) So, we need only to switch governments before constructing (or upgrading to) keshiks. 
Last edited by Rcoutme2 on 30-08-2005 at 22:45
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04-05-2005 14:35
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