05-04-2005 19:54									#1
	create your own Orange Revoultion Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

http://www.breakawaygames.com/news/...onviolence.html

This game has been developed with foundation support to teach pro-democracy activists. An example of what Steinmeyer calls 'serious games' IE games developed not for commercial sale, but for use by organizations like corporations, the military,etc as tools for analysis or training. In this case Breakaway will apparently also be releasing it for free.

Note Breakaway is the company that worked with Firaxis on Sid Meiers Antietam, and licensed the SMG/SMA engine for a pair of Napoleonic games.

	05-04-2005 20:54									#2
	Re: create your own Orange Revoultion Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark http://www.breakawaygames.com/news/...onviolence.html Note Breakaway is the company that worked with Firaxis on Sid Meiers Antietam, and licensed the SMG/SMA engine for a pair of Napoleonic games.

And they're the ones that made all the conquests for C3C.

Asmodean

	05-04-2005 21:27									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

i found this particularly interesting

'Marovic, the former student leader, said that many of those who planned the toppling of Milosevic played computer strategy games. “Out of 10 people in the leadership, five played strategy games, such as “The Operational Art of War,” he recalled.'

BTW - could some kind mod please correct the spelling in the thread title? Thanks

Last edited by lord of the mark on 05-04-2005 at 21:36

	09-04-2005 10:48									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

So, is the Communist Party of Apolyton real?

	09-04-2005 15:19									#5
	Suffering from ads?

Breakaway.

	09-04-2005 17:40									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Dr Spike's increasingly negative attitude

	09-04-2005 17:48									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sarcasm and wit in a great-value package deal

	10-04-2005 09:54									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Breakaway.

what dont you like about breakaway - the Civ3 stuff?

	10-04-2005 10:01									#9
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Breakaway.

Why is that?

	10-04-2005 14:06									#10
	Suffering from ads?

It is Civ3 stuff, though it's partially unfair. Given their background they could have done a much better job on their parts, so it irks me they did not, for whatever reason.

	11-04-2005 21:12									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well i cant really say - ive played SMG where their role was minor, if any - they played a bigger role in SMA, but I never quite got around to playing that. Never heard anything bad about their involvement in that game series.

I do think the concept of this game sounds really interesting - both from a gameplay POV, and from a what games mean to society POV.

	11-04-2005 22:24									#12
	Got spare money?

Eh? Take your pills please.

	11-04-2005 22:29									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar So I too can help finance protests in another country? Yay!

actually i think its designed for you to play as internal actor, though I suppose it would be interesting to play as outsider with limited levers, like subsidies. And to play on either side - pro-rev or anti-reve - so you could get to explore strategies open to say, Putin.

	12-04-2005 00:22									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Great idea

	12-04-2005 02:01									#15
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Actually, I was more implying I could play the US and bankroll protests in some unnamed country in the game

which is why i said play as either side. I meant play as either side from an external viewpoint, as well as internal.

	12-04-2005 15:10									#16
	Tired of ads?

it worries me for some reason?

	12-04-2005 21:00									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor it worries me for some reason?

I think on the whole this 4th wave of democratic revolutions has been a good thing and i think training like this empowers nonviolent change.

	12-04-2005 22:47									#18
	Remove this text

Not if you fire up HL2 afterwards to release your frustrations.

	13-04-2005 02:14									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: this 4th wave of democratic revolutions has been a good thing

Well at least until Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan elect theocratic states that declare war on the 'precious' US

...So that's democracy there

	13-04-2005 02:28									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Well at least until Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan elect theocratic states that declare war on the 'precious' US ...So that's democracy there

Duh, so, those authoritarian states have been around for years, and the grand result has been widespread radical Islamism, so like we should back up those authoritarian states to stay even longer? Like that really worked beautifully in Iran, didnt it? Besides, why should the Islamists in Egypt or Jordan declare war on the US? The Islamists in Turkey havent done so. And who knows if they would even win - the leading opposition guy in Egypt isnt an Islamist. As for KSA, if you think the govt there is not Islamist, or is a reliable ally of the US, well.......

But to get back on topic - wouldnt it be interesting to test some these ideas out in the context of a game like this? Sure change is scary, but isnt fear reduced by knowledge? Can we learn something from a game?

	13-04-2005 14:29									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

ah yes i thought so - its a kinda neo-con thing

Well its just not my bag baby.

The problem being i really dont trust the underlying 'thrust' behind the whole 'peace love+democracy' movement they represent.

We just have to look at what its proven happy to accept in terms of human suffering for the 'cause' in Iraq(and it WAS all about oil as that leaked document from the pentagon proved)

Also tied in closely with this gift of democracy is the finacial ties of american companies.

It just all stinks a bit to me - Imperalism which ever way you paint it.

I have no problem with trying to help people who genuinely want help in removing nasty boss-men, but the only way you can ever get world opinion to legitimise the approach is if there really are no strings attached.

So far these last few years the usa administration has done just about everything to not address these fears.

Sorry LotM - i think this just may be a wolf in sheeps clothing, so morally i don't want to dirty myself with it

EDit: sorry - this is starting to sound like me in the OT section, so i wont continue here as i dont have much to say in a gaming sense. Its too politicaly loaded for me.

If i've blown this out of proportion then i appologise I'm just very suspicious of anything that smells like a neo-con

Last edited by child of Thor on 13-04-2005 at 15:06

	13-04-2005 18:01									#22
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor ah yes i thought so - its a kinda neo-con thing Well its just not my bag baby. The problem being i really dont trust the underlying 'thrust' behind the whole 'peace love+democracy' movement they represent. We just have to look at what its proven happy to accept in terms of human suffering for the 'cause' in Iraq(and it WAS all about oil as that leaked document from the pentagon proved) Also tied in closely with this gift of democracy is the finacial ties of american companies. It just all stinks a bit to me - Imperalism which ever way you paint it. I have no problem with trying to help people who genuinely want help in removing nasty boss-men, but the only way you can ever get world opinion to legitimise the approach is if there really are no strings attached. So far these last few years the usa administration has done just about everything to not address these fears. Sorry LotM - i think this just may be a wolf in sheeps clothing, so morally i don't want to dirty myself with it EDit: sorry - this is starting to sound like me in the OT section, so i wont continue here as i dont have much to say in a gaming sense. Its too politicaly loaded for me. If i've blown this out of proportion then i appologise I'm just very suspicious of anything that smells like a neo-con

We ***** and moan about games that encourage militarism, and heres a game about peaceful change and we ***** and moan about it too, cause the US has supported some peaceful democratic revolutions? No strings - the new govt in Ukraine is removing its troops from Iraq, and the democratic govt in Serbia never supported the US on Iraq. Not everything is about Iraq. If you think everything the US does is suspicious, cause its done by the US - or even when the locals do it, cause the US likes it - well you ARE in a bad place, my friend. Or even if you a suspicious of anything cause the neocons like it. Youve let your dislike for neocons warp you into opposing the hopes of many peoples.

BTW, did you know that the govt funded institutions in the US that promote democracy are four - one associated with each political party, one with business and one with labor - thats two of them that DONT share neocon ideology, but helped struggling democrats in the Ukraine and elsewhere.

Did you read the stuff on the site i linked to?

And BTW, your Kristol quote is out of context Im sure.

	13-04-2005 18:06									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

heres a link to the international center on non-violent conflict, the sponsors of this game, so you can judge for yourself.

http://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/index_HTML.htm

	13-04-2005 20:05									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thank you for the link and having patience

I'll go have a look and see - and i did look at your link, it was all just talking about the stuff in game terms etc, nothing political at all. That was just the alarm bells that rang while i was reading it in the context of our world today - thats all.

And the Kristol quote was from his own mouth on the program they did here in the uk(info in the link in my sig) - and the program makers may well have taken it out of context. I still didn't like it much

Imran has tried to help me see the neo-cons in a different light, but i just don't like the undercurrent of intolerance and superiority that runs through much of the theory, and more importantly their actions.

	13-04-2005 20:29									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Thank you for the link and having patience I'll go have a look and see - and i did look at your link, it was all just talking about the stuff in game terms etc, nothing political at all. That was just the alarm bells that rang while i was reading it in the context of our world today - thats all. And the Kristol quote was from his own mouth on the program they did here in the uk(info in the link in my sig) - and the program makers may well have taken it out of context. I still didn't like it much Imran has tried to help me see the neo-cons in a different light, but i just don't like the undercurrent of intolerance and superiority that runs through much of the theory, and more importantly their actions.

what is "the chaos" - Statement could mean A. Chaos that undermines totalitarian regimes - good chaos or it could mean - The liberal idea of individual freedom causes undesirable chaos, and therefore societies with individual freedom ALSO need law and order, religion, tradition, and other stuff neo-cons like. Your implication, that it means Kristol wants an end to individual freedom, is inconsistent with both his writings and his actions.

By intolerance do you mean their willingness to ally with certain elements of the religious right on issues like abortion and gay marriage? I share your discomfort with that, and thats one reason (among others) why i do not consider myself a neocon, despite agreement with many of their forieign policy approaches. Or do you mean just a tone of intolerance - there I would say its an individual thing, and I would also say I find it as bad or worse among the self proclaimed adversaries of the neocons, including many in the UK left. Note also there is ideological diversity within the neocon camp - the views of James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney are not the same as those of William Kristol or Paul Wolfowitz. Also some are called neocons, like Donald Rumsfeld, who have never really been part of the neocon movement.


To return to topic, of course the site was about game issues - Breakaway is a game company - the question is 1 - are they modeling the situation well 2. Will there game be useful to those trying achieve non-violent democratic change? as for politics, the only politics in it was that some of the activists behind it are Serb students who helped bring down Slobo - was that what offended you?

	13-04-2005 20:38									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: ah yes i thought so - its a kinda neo-con thing

because I said democratization, how does that make it neocon - there ARE some folks here in the USA who support democracy promotion who are NOT neocons. Also a certain Prime Minister in the UK.

quote: Well its just not my bag baby.

No problem, man.

quote: The problem being i really dont trust the underlying 'thrust' behind the whole 'peace love+democracy' movement they represent.

whos the they? The Serbs who overthrew Slobo are somehow representatives of the invasion of Iraq, which took place AFTER their revolution? Havent some opponents of the Iraq war said Saddam SHOULD have been overthrown by the Iraqi people, thereby avoiding war? Why is a game intended to take learnings from Serbia and Georgia, and help people do JUST THAT be implicated in something totally different? Just because neocons ALSO like the wave of democratization? well I got news for you - some neocons have decided they want the US to be less dependent on imported oil, and are supporting hybrid vehicles for that purpose? Are you going to be suspicious of hybrid vehicles cause neocons like it?

	13-04-2005 22:37									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

*cough* Other Games *cough*

	13-04-2005 22:51									#28
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DrSpike *cough* Other Games *cough*

Oh yeah - to get back "on topic" afaik this game about political change will NOT feature smelly wood elves. Or cybering for pizza.

	13-04-2005 22:54									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

That's better.

	14-04-2005 22:06									#30
	Suffering from ads?

yes yes - cybering neo-cons smelling of pizza is not cool

helping people who would like to try democracy out, no strings attached is cool, as is playing games

[LotM - i may at some point soonish, start up a 'shoot down my neo-con paranoia' type thread in OT, where i will lay out why i dont trust the neo-con movement as far as i can throw it etc, i'll try to provide links, info etc to back up my recently formed view on the whole thing]