05-04-2005 21:24									#1
	Conversating.... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Just takin' a little breather and wanted to bounce something off of you folks who are lurking and participating here.

Hypothetical discussion question:

How much RPG influence should there be in a 4x game?

We've seen excellent games at points all along the spectrum, from Civ, with next to no "hero development" to Heroes of Might and Magic which played it up to the extreme, and going old school for a moment, Warlords, which was a FANTASTIC game for its day.

In our own discussions and tinkering, there's been talk of great war leaders and spies....with both types of characters seeing ongoing development as the game progresses.

So my question is....is there an interest in MORE of that type thing?

If so, off the top of my head, I can think of LOTS of directions we could take it.

Famed Diplomats, Notable members of the Clergy, Powerful Wizards, Noted Diplomats, Artists & Poets of renown, bold Explorers...all of these (and potentially more!) could grace the stage of your Kingdom, with some of these being under your direct influence and control, others serving other factions, and still others serving their own ends....whatever those might be.

On the one hand, a powerful argument could be made for such a thing...makes for a good storytelling device, and this, being a fantasy world, needs to be populated with a fair number of heroes and villains....heroic (or anti-heroic individuals who are larger than life, and playing out their parts in the backdrop of the Kingdom run by you, the player.

On the other hand, too much of that kind of thing begins to detract from the essence of the game as a 4x....

Discuss!

-=Vel=-

	06-04-2005 01:30									#2
	Put an end to popups!

One thought off the top of my head.

I think the direction we should take will become more obvious after a bit of play testing. For me it really depends how disposable your armies, diplomats etc. are. If the game ends up tending towards the Civ 'generic army unit' model, then RPG elements are going to look a bit forced. If things go more along the 'Total War' line, where armies end up gaining significant improvements as the game goes on , in other words,if there is an incentive to keep an army alive as far as possible - then great leaders and other RPG elements will add to the game nicely.


Rich.

	06-04-2005 02:45									#3
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Well said, and quite right!

At this point I cannot say for certain, but my *sense* of it is that armies and such very definitely won't be of the disposable variety. Population will eventually wind up being the ultimate resource, and with units costing pop points (and pulling them out of the economy), armies will be valuable indeed.

In the early discussion stages, leaders look to be QUITE powerful, and the models I'm playing around with re: Spies and such also look pretty intriguing.

Again, please keep in mind this isn't "official" stuffs, just....chit chat for now.

So assuming that a certain level of hero-style development enhances the game, what else, besides generals and spies, might you enjoy playin' around with?

-=Vel=-

	06-04-2005 07:31									#4
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Borrowing somewhat with the TW concept, I'd like to see main characters that may help the economic strength of the provinces, religious leaders that do the same for religious influence, and so forth. These figures could also build up retinues that may add strength in a different area. A major religious leader could have a captain that adds something like (+5%) defence, and an administrator that increases economic production slightly. Randomize their age, so some can die out over time.

Actually, these figures do not have to have an overpowering effect either - even a slight boost in a single area will add some atmosphere.

It may be easier from a coding standpoint to have these leaders and retinues stationary (ie, they cannot move to a different province), and have them randomized from game to game as to where they show up.

Of course, if it is possible, have them mobile too, but this may end up giving a player too much ability to create some uber-provinces.

I want more roleplaying elements that are sadly lacking in the TBS civ-style series. The best of the lot was SMAC because the main leaders were so well developed, but the addition of some of these retinue-style subleaders for the local level would have been cool.

It's one of the very best features of RTW/MTW.

	06-04-2005 09:42									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

If you are looking to add more important individuals to the game, A good place to do this would be to give neutral owned provinces their own personalities.

So instead of each neutral province being faceless and generic, each would have its own leader whom you have to deal with on any negotiations.

I have no idea how this could be implemented.

Whatever we do, I beleive there should be a single focus to the gameplay. So that the RPG type elements do not seem tacked on, or vice versa with the more traditional elements.

	06-04-2005 15:21									#6
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Good ideas and sound advice here...me likey!

If we opt to go this route, I really do like the idea of getting away from the "standards" of the genre....I mean, we'll have those (our generals more or less = the heroes of HOMM3, Warlords, etc), and the existing system being talked about gives them a fair level of complexity and sense of development.

Same goes for the spy model I been playing with.

And, since we've got four pillars (mil, espi, diplo, infrastructure), and two of those already have "hero types" being talked about, the next logical step would be to dream up hero types for the other two pillars (diplomats and governors/other officials come to mind immediately, but there are a great many others as well)

The multiple effects idea is an excellent one too, and plays well with the combinatronic theme....good stuffs!

And Gas! Yes yes! I LOVE the notion of eventually having the neutral provinces be something other than "generic"! I think that's an excellent thing to build toward (and eventually have it set up where a player can opt to play any of the "neutrals" rather than one of the five big dog factions....could be fun, and a good way of handicapping in MP.

One possible way to begin character development (which is a superb place of beginning in terms of crafting RPG style elements) would be to design 4 "ai spheres" along the same lines of our four pillars (mil, economic, diplo, espi) and assign them a weight value, totalling to 100%. Each "neutral" province could be assigned a leader with a unique weighting configuration that would define his/her overall thrust in terms of development.

Further, using in-game variables, we could similarly assign a point spread to define the value systems of individuals, thus:

Clergy - Wizards (support of)
Conservative - Liberal (or "Fringe" in CB lingo)
Militant - Diplomatic
Honorable - Infamous
Entrepreneureal - ? (groping for the right word here, first thing in the morning, but as we have established espionage at the other end of this spectrum, something relating to sneaky/shiftiness)

and more if we find ourselves needing them.

The sum-total of these point spreads would go far in determining the overall character and driving motivational forces OF these prominent individuals, and it'd be easy enough to take existing variables, moddable by the event engine, and apply them to unique "units" (representing the individuals) to confer this or that bonus.

-=Vel=-

	06-04-2005 15:31									#7
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Entrepreneureal - ? (groping for the right word here, first thing in the morning, but as we have established espionage at the other end of this spectrum, something relating to sneaky/shiftiness)

Black marketeer, light fingered, underhanded.

Any of those any good?


Rich.

	06-04-2005 16:04									#8
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Black Marketeer/Underhanded...yes yes!

-=Vel=-

	06-04-2005 16:05									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Black Marketeer/Underhanded...yes yes! -=Vel=-

Duplicitous might work as well.

Rich.

	09-04-2005 00:44									#10
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If the total war model is used, I would vote for making retinues stationary. Far too easy to abuse otherwise.

One idea that I would love to see implemented is the ability to assasinate and corrupt retinue members. The bigger bonus a retinue member provides, the harder to assasinate or corrupt. What does 'corrupt' mean? Well let's say that there is Jolly Ole' Nick who provides a 4% morale boost in the province. A skilled spy could have a chance to reduce this bonus by 1%, 2% or 3% with each increase becoming riskier and more prone to failure. And I would think that the corruption and assasination paths would require different units.

	09-04-2005 02:50									#11
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Top notch idea, good sir! And I quite agree. Any bonus that is given, must also have a means of being taken away....very good way to espand the scope of the espionage game, to boot!

-=Vel=-

	22-04-2005 05:54									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well, some RPG elements tossed in the game for a good measure are certainly interesting and may enrich the playing experience. I'm all for it.

	22-04-2005 15:50									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Outstanding! Looks like we're getting a pretty broad consensus then...

-=Vel=-