13-04-2005 22:27									#211
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What "other plane"?

There's dozens, even hundreds, of them.



The material planes are where most "normal" worlds exist.

Then there are the transitive planes (The Astral Plane, the Etheral Plane, the Shadow Plane, and the Dimension of Time) which act as a sort of bridge between the material planes and the inner and outer planes.

The inner planes are elemental in nature, while the outer planes are manifestations of thoughts, emotions, and beliefs - and that is where most gods live. (The city of Sigil where Planescape: Torment takes place is in the center of the outer planes)

	13-04-2005 22:51									#212
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd There's dozens, even hundreds, of them. The material planes are where most "normal" worlds exist. Then there are the transitive planes (The Astral Plane, the Etheral Plane, the Shadow Plane, and the Dimension of Time) which act as a sort of bridge between the material planes and the inner and outer planes. The inner planes are elemental in nature, while the outer planes are manifestations of thoughts, emotions, and beliefs - and that is where most gods live. (The city of Sigil where Planescape: Torment takes place is in the center of the outer planes)

Not all, stories that use magic use this plot point, but even with another plane, so what? Some more abstract physics theories expect a universe with multiple dimensions- If you know about said plane, its relation to your plane, how to move about, who to make predictions and so forth, again, Magic loses its "unknown" quantity.

But as I said before, that does not then make the story sci if, it makes it a fantasy universe where people have come to undertstand this force.

	13-04-2005 22:56									#213
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quote: as I said before, that does not then make the story sci if, it makes it a fantasy universe where people have come to undertstand this force.

Because...

quote: at the basis there is the notion that this other "non-real" force exists

But -

quote: Some more abstract physics theories expect a universe with multiple dimensions

	13-04-2005 23:13									#214
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Saying there are multiple dimensions does not equal stating there is a force that somehow is able to trump gravity, electromagnetism, the weak and the strong nuclear force, which is what magic invariably does in fantasy stories.

The point, whcih you missed, is that just saying there are mutliple dimensions is not in and of itself "magical", as such a thing can be proposed throught the study of those forces we do know about in an attempt to explain them.

	13-04-2005 23:42									#215
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Saying there are multiple dimensions does not equal stating there is a force that somehow is able to trump gravity, electromagnetism, the weak and the strong nuclear force, which is what magic invariably does in fantasy stories.

I just explained to you that magic in the D&D universe is not simply a "force" that can "trump" physical laws. Magic is mostly a manipulation of the other planes.

A wizard can not "trump" the laws of gravity, but he can converge with the ethereal plane where gravity does not exist.

	14-04-2005 10:12									#216
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I just explained to you that magic in the D&D universe is not simply a "force" that can "trump" physical laws. Magic is mostly a manipulation of the other planes.

I believe thats evocation magic.

	14-04-2005 13:01									#217
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Magic = the unexplainable. You will never hear a Jedi say that "the Force" is magic, and that is because they understand it. Those that do not understand will call it "magic" a "hokey religion" etc.

The same goes for wizards in D&D, they study it, they understand how it works, but it is far more mysterious (ie magical) for those that don't understand how it works.

The same also btw goes for people who do not understand modern day/real life science.

	14-04-2005 13:04									#218
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centrifuge,

What is the difference between spells from wizards and spells from priests? In terms of the source of their energy.

Always been curious about that one.

	14-04-2005 13:14									#219
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Not you too, Ted...

	14-04-2005 13:15									#220
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Hmmm interesting point. Spells from priests are supposed to come from the power of a deity I'd imagine, whereas "Energy spells" would be more of a physical phenomenon. Of course this can bring up arguments such as "God is a physical phenomenon" etc. but fiction can't cover all bases.

	14-04-2005 13:30									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Not you too, Ted...

Nah.

I played some online games when I was younger but I don't have time for that nowadays.

I still like the magical side of it though, for a number of reasons, mostly how it relates to real life on a spiritual, religious level.

	14-04-2005 13:31									#222
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quote: Originally posted by centrifuge Hmmm interesting point. Spells from priests are supposed to come from the power of a deity I'd imagine, whereas "Energy spells" would be more of a physical phenomenon. Of course this can bring up arguments such as "God is a physical phenomenon" etc. but fiction can't cover all bases.

Thanks

	14-04-2005 21:16									#223
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Read Terry Pratchett for the answer to that one-and a lot more things.

	14-04-2005 21:35									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker centrifuge, What is the difference between spells from wizards and spells from priests? In terms of the source of their energy. Always been curious about that one.

In D&D, a wizard's spell is made by direct manipulation of the magic weave (which, as I understand it, is sort of the 'glue' that holds the multiverse together, and runs through every plane of existance). The weave is also largley dependant on Mystra, who directs it into a predictable and controlable element, where her guidance over the weave is absent, magic is chaotic and wild.


Priest's spells, on the other hand, are essentially acts of god - the priest asks the god for something, and the god does the magic. Gods are basically super-wizards.

	14-04-2005 22:47									#225
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As I have neither the time, nor the bandwith to stumble through this mockery of Science Fiction, I shall just say this:

ST: The good guys are a bunch of communist retards who couldn't fight there way out of a wet paper bag.

SW: Free-market, galactic wide civilizations with FTL much faster than warp, and a halfway competant military on both sides.

SW wins.

	14-04-2005 23:37									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar As I have neither the time, nor the bandwith to stumble through this mockery of Science Fiction, I shall just say this: ST: The good guys are a bunch of communist retards who couldn't fight there way out of a wet paper bag. SW: Free-market, galactic wide civilizations with FTL much faster than warp, and a halfway competant military on both sides. SW wins.

SW is in the past and their civilizations are all extinct.


Star Trek is the futre.


Star trek wins.

	15-04-2005 00:11									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar As I have neither the time, nor the bandwith to stumble through this mockery of Science Fiction, I shall just say this: ST: The good guys are a bunch of communist retards who couldn't fight there way out of a wet paper bag. SW: Free-market, galactic wide civilizations with FTL much faster than warp, and a halfway competant military on both sides. SW wins.

Kirk an fight his way out of anything. Have you seen the 2 handed punch?

The millenium Falcon can only go light speed. That is Warp 1. I'd say ST wins this one.

Halfway competant military? The stormtroopers couldn't hit the side of a barn. Teddy bears eliminated the supposedly most fearsome military in the galaxy.

	15-04-2005 01:51									#228
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How many crushers launched and wasted in this thread alone?

	15-04-2005 02:48									#229
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd In D&D, a wizard's spell is made by direct manipulation of the magic weave (which, as I understand it, is sort of the 'glue' that holds the multiverse together, and runs through every plane of existance). The weave is also largley dependant on Mystra, who directs it into a predictable and controlable element, where her guidance over the weave is absent, magic is chaotic and wild. Priest's spells, on the other hand, are essentially acts of god - the priest asks the god for something, and the god does the magic. Gods are basically super-wizards.

Cool!

Thanks.

	15-04-2005 03:12									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Kirk an fight his way out of anything. Have you seen the 2 handed punch? The millenium Falcon can only go light speed. That is Warp 1. I'd say ST wins this one. Halfway competant military? The stormtroopers couldn't hit the side of a barn. Teddy bears eliminated the supposedly most fearsome military in the galaxy.

I've been saying this for eons, but it always triggers hissy fits from the "Jar-Jar for President" fan club.

	15-04-2005 07:04									#231
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Yeah, the militaries in SW seen rather pathtically incompetent all around. Hard to be fearful of any empire that makes their doom weapons with obvious major weakenesses that a single guy in a tiny little plane can just blow them up.

	15-04-2005 07:08									#232
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quote: How many crushers launched and wasted in this thread alone?

The Crushers are useless against a geek-field of this magnitude. We are all doomed...

	15-04-2005 07:38									#233
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So says the Dune fiend.....

	15-04-2005 07:48									#234
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Yeah, I've read Dune twice. I sure am a super-geek...

	15-04-2005 07:56									#235
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Do we need to bring out the SW threads were you were arguing about how the Dune universe beat the others? You you really think you can hide from your Geek past? We have evidence!

	15-04-2005 08:21									#236
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quote: Do we need to bring out the SW threads were you were arguing about how the Dune universe beat the others?

That was back before we had intense discussions about the nature of science fiction and magic to derail these stupid threads. I had to do my part, even if I am woefully unequipped for the job...

	15-04-2005 08:45									#237
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Besides, unlike SW/ST, Dune (at least the books towards the beginning) are awesome.

	16-04-2005 08:05									#238
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd It can be measured, predicted, and studied, but is still mysterious and otherwordly, because it is largely dependant on other planes of existance. (and what is more otherwordly than that?)

D&D is hack that nobody takes as genre defining work. Genre here refers to fantasy, even though it still doesn't fare all that well for a fantasy RPG.

	16-04-2005 09:06									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Do we need to bring out the SW threads were you were arguing about how the Dune universe beat the others? That was back before we had intense discussions about the nature of science fiction and magic to derail these stupid threads. I had to do my part, even if I am woefully unequipped for the job...

I believe you Drake.


Millions don't.

	16-04-2005 11:02									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It was far worse, IMO, to steal the candles from the bishop than to hide the penny, in effect stealing it.

Then you have utterly no comprehension of the message Hugo was conveying. The hiding of the penny was indeed the worse of the two sins. Robbing Petite Gervais of his coin was precisely the breaking point for Valjean. When he realized what he had done to the little boy, he breaks into tears and is inconsolable with grief over what he has done. He has no such overt remorse for stealing the Bishop's silver.

The Bishop had more silver, Petite Gervais had nothing else. How could you possibly think robbing the boy is the lesser of the sins?