07-04-2005 21:25									#1
	MG/Rover dying. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The rump remains of what was once the world's fourth largest automaker shuttered it's last factory today. Britain MG/Rover Group, that nations last domestically owned volume car maker, has been unable to pay its bills and is asking the government to bail it out. The company had been hoping to find a foreign buyer but with a failed merger with BMW behind it and a series of failed talks with various Asian automakers things are not looking good for MG/Rover.

Back in 1994 the company was bought by BMW and its future looked secure, however, BMW ran into its own troubles and had difficulty coming up with the money to design new models at Rover. Thus the Germans broke the company up spinning off the MG & Rover brands, selling the Land Rover brand to Ford, and keeping the Mini brand for itself. Experts are saying that doomed MG/Rover by removing its two most profitable brands and losing its US dealership network. The management of MG/Rover is holding out hope for a last minute merger with China's #1 automaker Shanghai Automotive Industrial Corp (SAIC) but reportedly the Chinese are loath to buy out the lose making car company unless the British government kicks in generous subsidies. Alternatively, the mass car brand Rover could be allowed to die while the sports car brand MG could survive as a boutique maker.

What is for sure is that currently MG/Rover's 6,000 strong work force in the English midlands has been furlowed without pay. This is looking like the final chapter in the saga of British owned car makers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4420507.stm

	07-04-2005 22:13									#2
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I'm not sure how much subsidies we could provide given EU law in that area....

	07-04-2005 23:19									#3
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EU Law doesn't seem to stop Italians whenever FIAT is in trouble.

British gave up on automaking long ago.

	07-04-2005 23:23									#4
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I mean, the government gave up on supporting a national company. There are still a bunch of car factories in UK that make cars for foreign brands and it's still British autoindustry, but ... you know what I mean.

Can anyone seriously imagine FIAT or Renault going under? No. The opposite in Britain, for some reason strong national auto brand is not considered as strategic interest (as it is in other countries).

	07-04-2005 23:27									#5
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Automobile industry -> jobs + keeping up the tech -> keeping up the manufacturing capacity -> tanks?

What are crazy Englishmen thinking? The channel canal is open and it's a matter of time before advanced Leclercs and Leopards storm over(under), only to be met by Challengers three generations behind

	07-04-2005 23:35									#6
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I liked the design of the Rover 75.

	08-04-2005 01:14									#7
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we are not manufacturer's these days it seems - just mass consumers of cheaper foreign imports

I've had two british made cars(a Talbot 'Rancho' and an old style mini). Both had a cheap and chearfull feel to them, not much of a quality finish etc. Still they were fun, the mini really was nice to drive(like a go-cart).
But apart from some classic sports cars, i don't think we were very good at making cars, especially in the modern era.

Still its pretty sad and the long term loss of skills is worrying

	08-04-2005 01:19									#8
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Automobile industry -> jobs + keeping up the tech -> keeping up the manufacturing capacity -> tanks? What are crazy Englishmen thinking? The channel canal is open and it's a matter of time before advanced Leclercs and Leopards storm over(under), only to be met by Challengers three generations behind

British Navy is and was the centre of homeland defence. Go Cunard!

	08-04-2005 01:38									#9
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The British Navy never really recovered from the Prince of Wales

	08-04-2005 01:46									#10
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He has that effect on most people.

	08-04-2005 01:56									#11
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http://www.simcatalbotclub.org/rancho.htm

Now i could be wrong, but it seems that the origonal company that made this beast wasn't british, but i think Talbot was a uk car company?

Anyway it had its charms, and a whole bunch of flaws

	08-04-2005 02:09									#12
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I still remember a guy was offerring to sell me his Jaguar. I knew these cars had a bad history of expensive maintenance. I turned him down.

But you guys still make Jaguar cars, right?

	08-04-2005 02:14									#13
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Jaguar is now owned by Ford

	08-04-2005 02:23									#14
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Vauxhall is owned by GM
Jaguar is owned by Ford
MG British owned but going under (maybe)
Rover British owned but going under (likely)
Land Rover owned by Ford
Mini owned by BMW
Rolls Royce owned by BMW
Lotus owned by Proton of Malaysia
TVR bought by some Russian guy
Bentley owned by VW

There are a few British owned small sports car companies but they don't amount to much though the Japanese (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc...) have numerous auto factories in the UK which make some mighty fine automobiles.

	08-04-2005 02:27									#15
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I've just always like British cars for some reason. When I was growing up my father always seemed to have some British sports car in the garage as his toy. Invariably it would always be in some degree of disrepair but when you could get them working they were a lot of fun. I can recall over the years he owned a Sunbeam Alpine, two MGBs (one rubber bumpered and one steel bumpered), a TR6, and a Lotus Elane (1960's vintage). He let me drive the Lotus on Prom night.

	08-04-2005 02:34									#16
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My old man used to have this thing about Morris minors, he never had any other car, we had salon and estate(wooden frame!) versions.

As a kid i always wanted a Triumph Stag when i was old enough. TR7 too I know what you mean about this era of cars - kinda flawed but fun. It will be a shame to be left with just the few minority sports cars makers imho.
I guess after the Dolorian thing the British government is wary of pumping cash into this industry?

	08-04-2005 02:46									#17
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Incidentally DeLorean died the other week.

	08-04-2005 02:51									#18
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yeah i guess that was why they put that 'horizon' documentary on about all that took place. DeLorean got it - heh, my spelling stinks Would that class as a british car?

EDIT: latest bit - it seems definately dead now

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4422705.stm

Last edited by child of Thor on 08-04-2005 at 03:20

	08-04-2005 03:34									#19
	Tired of ads?

If Colin Chapman hadn't died of a heart attack then he likely would have spent time in prison along with Delorean over that whole drug smuggling thing. Since that would have brought Lotus down with Delorean I'm kind of glad the old man had the wits to check out before that happened.

	08-04-2005 04:29									#20
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Well I've been patriotic as my car was made in Sunderland...by Nissan As for Rovers - never, ever fancied one of the things...

	08-04-2005 04:39									#21
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I thought one of the Mars rovers was about to expire.

	08-04-2005 04:47									#22
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Rovers are unreliable overpriced SUVs. No loss here.

Unless someone buys them and makes the wind change directions. Like Volvo and Lamborghini for example.

Spec.

	08-04-2005 04:48									#23
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I think you are getting confused Spec, we are talking about the British car manufacturer, not some sort of SUV...

	08-04-2005 05:06									#24
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Automobile industry -> jobs + keeping up the tech -> keeping up the manufacturing capacity -> tanks? What are crazy Englishmen thinking? The channel canal is open and it's a matter of time before advanced Leclercs and Leopards storm over(under), only to be met by Challengers three generations behind

No problem. It wouldn't take more than a university fraternity and a healthy supply of beer to flood the Chunnel.

	10-04-2005 17:42									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Spec Rovers are unreliable overpriced SUVs. No loss here. Unless someone buys them and makes the wind change directions. Like Volvo and Lamborghini for example. Spec.

Your thinking of Land Rover which was Rover's SUV division before BMW got cold feet and sold it off to Ford a few years back. BMW kept the Mini brand and spun off the MG & Rover brands as their own company.

	10-04-2005 17:44									#26
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor http://www.simcatalbotclub.org/rancho.htm Now i could be wrong, but it seems that the origonal company that made this beast wasn't british, but i think Talbot was a uk car company?

It was. It grew out of the old Rootes group. Then it was bought up by Chrysler/GM and merged with Peugeot (Simca).

	10-04-2005 17:55									#27
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4426383.stm

Nice timeline on the 100 year history of auto making at Long Bridge.

	12-04-2005 15:09									#28
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It's sad really the Chinese pulled out because the British government wouldn't extend bridging loans for two years plus there was disagreement over the 400 million pounds in pension unfunded pension debt Rover owed its retired employees. SAIC has pulled out so Rover is certainly dead and one of the oldest car makers in the world has gone belly up. It seems likely that MG will also die but it is possible MG will survive in some form. Unlike Rover MG's sales have been up each of the last five years plus its models are relatively newer then Rover's line up. Critically people in the US, Canada, and Australia (big potential markets) actually recognize the MG name while Rover seems to sink in a sea of anonymity.

I know growing up one of my neighbors had a 1977 Rover 3500 (sold in the EU as the Rover SD1) and it was a medium to small sized two door coupe with four wheel independent suspension, a five speed manual, disk breaks, and a 3.5L V-8. The engine was actually originally designed by GM and was dead reliable (the well thought off Rover V-8 started life as a Buick V-8 but in the late 1960’s GM decided that Buicks would be limited to V-6s while Caddy and Olds got the V-8 treatment thus the Buick V-8 was sold to British Leyland) . It was a nice car which had some electrical problems (all of the electrics were done by Lucas electric which was nick-named “the prince of darkness” for its high rate of failure) but mechanically it was dead reliable. I’m afraid that BL in the 1970’s was a text book case for how not to manage labor/management relations because there were several cases of management screwing workers and workers sabotaging cars in order to get even but in the end it was the company which suffered and nearly everyone lost their jobs because of it. To bad because it was one of the world’s first automakers but at least the Rover name survives in Land Rover (which started as Rover’s military brand in WW2).

PS it’s 3am and I’m drunk so sorry about misspellings. I am trying to e John Miller right now.

Attachment: roverover.jpg
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	12-04-2005 18:18									#29
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MG/Rover didn't die. It was killed.

	12-04-2005 22:16									#30
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Now, now Oerdin, you didn't pinch that picture off me at Counterglow did you? *tut* Well I got it off Dauphin at CGN anyway