08-04-2005 12:33									#1
	Abandonware? Put an end to popups!

Anyone else go hunting through the web for emulators to play their favourite old arcade and home computer games?

I just finished an excellent Bomb Jack session.

	08-04-2005 12:44									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I've got hundreds of roms, but I never have time to play them. I doubt if I ever will.

	08-04-2005 12:47									#3
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I never realized that Galaxian was such a crap game.

I can't believe how much I've lost my skills. I'm getting absolutely pwned at Sinistar which was my game for a couple of years.

	08-04-2005 13:56									#4
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old games suck. I tried playing Wasteland. I probably would finish it, if it weren't for the horrible save system in that game.

	08-04-2005 15:24									#5
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quote: Abandonware?

...is not allowed here

	08-04-2005 15:32									#6
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Winter Games ;=)
Ah sweet Times.

	08-04-2005 20:05									#7
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quote: Originally posted by VJ ...is not allowed here

Even when the games are so old that the computers they run on have not been produced for decades? I haven't seen anyone manically closing threads everytime we stray into nostalgia territory. We just don't link to sites.

I was amazed recently to discover that there were over five thousand games made for the Spectrum. I always thought I'd seen most of what was available for it, but I must have missed a good percentage completely.

	08-04-2005 20:58									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Even when the games are so old that the computers they run on have not been produced for decades? I haven't seen anyone manically closing threads everytime we stray into nostalgia territory. We just don't link to sites.

Theres nothing wrong with discussing the games. Whos to say someone playing it has even dled it? They could have dusted off something they bought retail in the day, or they could have bought it on ebay. Its just aggie used a hot button word in his thread title, but thats, er, par for the course, so to speak.

	08-04-2005 21:09									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I never realized that Galaxian was such a crap game. I can't believe how much I've lost my skills. I'm getting absolutely pwned at Sinistar which was my game for a couple of years.

6 months ago I finally broke a million on Robotron: 2084, difficulty level 5, using the keyboard. Man was that tough - and on a game where I set the Georgia state "record" (35,000,000 points) back in 1982!

	08-04-2005 22:10									#10
	Suffering from ads?

Many games have been officially abandoned by their copyright holders. That is the case for a lot of Spectrum games. It's just silly to complain about people downloading something that no one really has any great interest in selling, and which is now the preserve of hobbyists. These games are museum pieces now.

If they want to sue me for piracy, they can go ahead. Most of the original game cassettes are still sitting in my mother's cupboard.

Or better still, they could start a service allowing people to download working roms for a buck each (there is one, but the selection sucks).

	08-04-2005 23:32									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Many games have been officially abandoned by their copyright holders. That is the case for a lot of Spectrum games. It's just silly to complain about people downloading something that no one really has any great interest in selling, and which is now the preserve of hobbyists. These games are museum pieces now. If they want to sue me for piracy, they can go ahead. Most of the original game cassettes are still sitting in my mother's cupboard. Or better still, they could start a service allowing people to download working roms for a buck each (there is one, but the selection sucks).

I completely agree with all of that.

Doesn't change the fact that the owners don't like discussions of abandonware on this site.

	09-04-2005 00:11									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I never realized that Galaxian was such a crap game. I can't believe how much I've lost my skills. I'm getting absolutely pwned at Sinistar which was my game for a couple of years.

That can be explained, Sinistar had a special directional joystick which most contemporary run-of-the-mill joysticks don 't have. There are a few DIY sites out there that will tell you how to achieve that unique "sinistar" feeling

	09-04-2005 00:13									#13
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I completely agree with all of that. Doesn't change the fact that the owners don't like discussions of abandonware on this site.

Maybe if we discuss it, but don't mention the word "abandonware"

Asmodean

	09-04-2005 00:21									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've got a soft spot for Elevator Action myself. Nice graphics, nice gameplay, nice tune, nice challenge

I still remember when the first versions of MAME appeared around 97. Being able to play those games from the arcade on your PC, wow! If only for a brief moment of nostalgia (I lost interest in most after a few tries).


Who would have thought 15-20 years ago that you could play all those games from the arcade when you were a kid?

Isn't that a dream come true?

	09-04-2005 00:27									#15
	Re: Abandonware? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Anyone else go hunting through the web for emulators to play their favourite old arcade and home computer games?

I recently uhhh, found a floppy with this game... Gold of the Americas. Man, it's a good game.

	09-04-2005 00:56									#16
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I look under my computer desk, blow a bit of dust and behold some classic nostalga, i play it fairly often too

I have the odd bit of downloaded software(horrors!), but it only gets to that if i just cant find the title i'm interested in anywhere to buy, and i get those from a place that if asked removes any title it has on its lists. Seems ethical to me(as its a fairly well known site).

Still part of the fun is tracking down a real origonal with all the maps, pull outs etc.
I had quite a heavy few weeks on ebay a while ago untill i managed to get a copy of Daggerfall. But i eventualy got it and worked out how to install and play the thing with minimal crashing.

Real boxed origonals just make you feel like you really own something, its not just(maybe dubious) data on your harddrive, and your supporting the folks who make these games we love

	09-04-2005 01:31									#17
	Re: Re: Abandonware? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by vovan I recently uhhh, found a floppy with this game... Gold of the Americas. Man, it's a good game.

Got that game too, for real in fact on my SSI collection CD.

It was quite a challenge and it showed that it's quite feasible to even operate a business with 100% tax rate on profits. You just have to make just a bit more this year to pay taxes for last years profits.

	09-04-2005 02:51									#18
	Got spare money?

quote: Maybe if we discuss it, but don't mention the word "abandonware"

It depends what it means. Many old programs have been abandoned by their creators and released for free. My favourite Speccy site is pretty good about taking down stuff that owners complain about.

Without abandonware sites and people who can be bothered writing emulators, these games would die.

I'd actually like to see a court case on this. I think it is legitimate for users to download games they have already paid for and run them on emulators so that they can continue to enjoy them. If they won't give you that right, then screw them.

	09-04-2005 05:13									#19
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor I look under my computer desk, blow a bit of dust and behold some classic nostalga, i play it fairly often too I have the odd bit of downloaded software(horrors!), but it only gets to that if i just cant find the title i'm interested in anywhere to buy, and i get those from a place that if asked removes any title it has on its lists. Seems ethical to me(as its a fairly well known site). Still part of the fun is tracking down a real origonal with all the maps, pull outs etc. I had quite a heavy few weeks on ebay a while ago untill i managed to get a copy of Daggerfall. But i eventualy got it and worked out how to install and play the thing with minimal crashing. Real boxed origonals just make you feel like you really own something, its not just(maybe dubious) data on your harddrive, and your supporting the folks who make these games we love

Ag, i think that you are correct, that dl'ing a game for say nintendo that you own legitimately is legal, or at least not illegal.
Copyright law in respect to digital media has generally been interpreted to mean that you have the right to own one copy of the digital data itself, in any media you choose, in useable form, and you also may generally make a backup copy for archival purposes, as long as you only run one copy of such a program at any one point (or as many copies as you've paid for).
For example, I own one copy of Civ3, and have it installed on both my computer and my girlfriend's computer, but only play it on one or the other.
Sony sued a while back and tried (in various ways) to get Bleem! and Connectix to stop making playstation emulators; they failed legally but succeeded commercially (buying out connectix and driving bleem! into bankruptcy through legal fees). (This site discusses the dispute, in part.) Although Sony succeeded in killing both companies, the legal ramification was that emulators are considered legal.

	09-04-2005 05:16									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

I was looking for Hyperspeed a few months ago and a few websites have the files for download but cannot due to Atari aquiring the rights to the game and their blanket "no piracy" stance on all games they hold rights to.

So I was confronted with a situation where the game was not available for download and also not available for sale.

	09-04-2005 08:15									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'd like to see all software that has no longer been supported for five years and is no longer offered for sale at market price released under a free licence that allows anyone to share it, but not charge for it.

Why? Because intellectual property rights exist only to serve the public good through giving people a financial incentive to create such things as games. In the case of old software, there is a demand that is not being met by the market -- so the state should step in and guarantee the right of persons to engage in mutually beneficial exchanges. Otherwise we are just condoning hoarding that benefits no-one.

I'm willing to bet that corporate scum are behind the demonizing of abandonware. If I was the programmer of an old Spectrum game and people still wanted to play it after 25 years, I'd be flattered and gratified.

	09-04-2005 09:50									#22
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Doesn't change the fact that the owners don't like discussions of abandonware on this site.

That's because some of the games on these websites are not officially released by the copyright owners.

Kudos to Sid for doing the right thing

	09-04-2005 10:15									#23
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But on the other hand these games are removed if the copyright owners request it or even make a blanket statement against abandoware such as that of Atari.

	09-04-2005 12:09									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

I've played many a game on emulators.

I've had many a session of Kennedy Approach and Dr. Creep.

In terms of abandonware. The issue that is at core is the definition of it. If I hold the copyright to something, it is my right and my right alone to publish it for public use, sale, whatever. Who knows? 5 years from now, Sega / Nintendo / Atari / Commodore may decide to publish an emulator of their own and allow DLing of ROMs from a website for a fee. It's their right to do so or not do so at their choosing.

Several games have been released for free public distribution, Ultima IV is one of them. But, EA / Origin still holds the copyight for the game and can cease that practice any time it desires to.

Copyright law is intended to create an incentive for creating an original work such as a novel, computer game, etc etc. By distributing games for free without permission of the copyright holder is illegal no matter how you look at it, regardless of how long C64s haven't been manufactured. Also, regardless of whether the recipient has paid for a copy of the game in the past. Does having paid for a book 10 years ago entitle you to a new copy if the book falls apart or is lost? No. Or a braille version if you lose your sight? No. Or a paperback copy if you decide you'd rather only tote around the smaller one? No.

That being said, it sure is fun to fire up a game of Archon.

	09-04-2005 15:11									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns But on the other hand these games are removed if the copyright owners request it or even make a blanket statement against abandoware such as that of Atari.

Yeah, the safeguards are probably enough. But last time we made that argument it wasn't accepted, and I've no reason to think it will this time.

	09-04-2005 16:57									#26
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True enough. It was worth pointing out for its own sake though.

	09-04-2005 17:41									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns True enough. It was worth pointing out for a +1 though.

Corrected.

	09-04-2005 22:23									#28
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quote: Originally posted by dunk Copyright law is intended to create an incentive for creating an original work such as a novel, computer game, etc etc.

That also should mean that copyright should last for a limited duration. That is because copyright creates a monopoly, and the interests of the public and the creator must be balanced - in theory, anyway.

quote: Originally posted by dunk Also, regardless of whether the recipient has paid for a copy of the game in the past. Does having paid for a book 10 years ago entitle you to a new copy if the book falls apart or is lost?

Why not? He already has paid for a copy of it. I posit that it means he paid for the right for unlimited access for the content of said work in question for eternity. Either for himself, or whoever he cares to pass such a right to.

quote: Originally posted by dunk No. Or a braille version if you lose your sight? No. Or a paperback copy if you decide you'd rather only tote around the smaller one? No.

If you pay the cost for the medium, you should be able to. Otherwise consumers are getting ripped off.

	09-04-2005 22:25									#29
	Remove this text

quote: In terms of abandonware. The issue that is at core is the definition of it. If I hold the copyright to something, it is my right and my right alone to publish it for public use, sale, whatever. Who knows? 5 years from now, Sega / Nintendo / Atari / Commodore may decide to publish an emulator of their own and allow DLing of ROMs from a website for a fee. It's their right to do so or not do so at their choosing.

That's irrelevant. What people might do is neither here nor there. What they will probably do is what matters.

If people desperately want to play these things, and the market continues to refuse to respond, then the market is not doing its job and it is time for regulation.

If the companies concerned were really interested in releasing their old games, they would do so when confronted with such a threat. But without it, they'll just sit on them to the disappointment of consumers.

It's the government's job to stand up for the consumer in the face of all this AYB crap. Copyright exists for the benefit of consumers, not producers. Unfortunately the producers seem to forget that basic fact.

	10-04-2005 10:12									#30
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1. IIUC the key legal issue re abandonware has been who has to notify whom, and the difficulties of doing so. If a site will really remove a publishers games cause the pub puts up a generic statement against abandonware, and doesnt even have to contact the site, that seems pretty reasonable to me - how hard is that. The publishers may be unwilling to make such disticintions, for fear of not being able to control it once theyve agreed to give any legitimacy - but their hardass stand may be hurting them, by looking unreasonable.
I acknowldege Polys position, since they depend on pubs, and not all pubs are reasonable.

2. Where a pub DOES decide to withhold abandonware, thats there right - they could have many different reasons to, cause they are thinking of doing a sequel (yes, it might help a sequel to giveaway an old game, but thats the pubs decision to make), etc

3. OTOH, copyright isnt forever. Its supposed to expire at some point, and material is supposed to enter the public domain. It seems logical that in a field like software, where tech updates obsolece games, and payback cycles are short, that using copyright lengths from traditional media (themselves perhaps unreasonably lengthened) is unreasonable.