08-04-2005 16:37									#1
	ww2 what if: Could USSR have pwned europe? Enter the AD-FREE zone

Like all those "what if" threads on how Germany would have done without all the mistakes made in history, just how would have the soviet union done without all the mistakes made? Assume that Stalin is interested in international communism that encompasses europe and is willing to gamble for it, can he do it? Lets say the time line diverges at 1930....

	08-04-2005 17:08									#2
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If the timeline diverges in 1930, then this really isn't a WW2 question, is it?

You... MORON!!!

	08-04-2005 19:42									#3
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Have Patton go mad and order his troops to march on Moscow. The Red Army would be in a fantastic strategic position to sweep down into all of Continental Europe.

The US and the UK wouldn't be in a position to do anything. Even with full command of the seas, getting a bomber far enough inland to nuke Moscow would be impossible.

The UK, OTOH, would probably be able to stay independent. There definitely wouldn't be any Chunnels in the 20th Century, though.

	08-04-2005 19:48									#4
	Re: ww2 what if: Could USSR have pwned europe? Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by MORON Like all those "what if" threads on how Germany would have done without all the mistakes made in history, just how would have the soviet union done without all the mistakes made? Assume that Stalin is interested in international communism that encompasses europe and is willing to gamble for it, can he do it? Lets say the time line diverges at 1930....

does he still purge the military of a bunch of smart people?

[edit] dumb question. As before if any side had acted perfectly while everyone else was still being dumbasses that side would be the unquestioned leader of the entire world.[/edit]

	08-04-2005 20:07									#5
	Re: ww2 what if: Could USSR have pwned europe? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The USSR would only have a chance if communism would also gain power in Europe. But that is questionable.

With the USSR approaching I think the first thing the coward balance-of-power watching Brits will do is tear down the contract of versailles and they'll try to build an alliance against the threat from the east.

Upon seeing the USSR being relatively pwned in WW2 by Germany alone (who had to fight on way more front than just one!) I hardly think they'll stand any chance.

The only hope the USSR can have is to destroy Europe from within by promoting communism. (in that scenario)

	08-04-2005 20:12									#6
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As I understand it, the USSR was practically exhausted by the end of WWII, I remember hearing once 90% of it's fighting age male populaion were dead or injured. Moreover, the USA and UK would have no longer been supplying them industrially, and there was a good chance in a western/soviet conflict that the remains of the Wehrmact would have joined the allies. The Allies would have also had air superiority, and so it doesn't seem as though the USSR would have much hope of destroying the west.

	08-04-2005 20:32									#7
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I've read many althist books on the subject - most of them featuring gung-ho yankees riding deep into indian territory and whopping their arse near Kuibyshev.

But some interesting points
- Red Army trucks were mostly US, and in a conflict would soon run out of spare parts (at least until replacements could be made in USSR).
- Antisoviet uprisings that everyone blames Hitler at not supporting would bloom in full flower = trouble in Ukraine, Baltics and possibly Caucasus.
- two or three Nukes used on a tactical-operational level rather than Moscow would offset most of red advantages in central Europe
- Air superiority - Allies would most of the time own the skies

	08-04-2005 20:43									#8
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Re shi and sara, since the timeline splits in 1930, what occured in WW2 is irrelevant. I would posit thought that
NO, 90% of the USSR's young male population was NOT dead or injured- it amazes me anyone chould think that- what the **** was the Red Army made up then in 1945???

Going back to 1930, well, the big questions are whether the anti-kulak campaign would have continued or made it into full swing or not, and then the success or failure of the first 5 year plan.

I would say in a fantasy world were Stalin were not a conservative paranoid megalomaniac, maybe he would have laid off the kulaks, begtan his 5 year program in 1930 and then by 1936 Soviet industrial output would have been sufficient enough to start making a modern war machine.

	08-04-2005 23:14									#9
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Have Patton go mad

GO mad? he already WAS mad.

	08-04-2005 23:22									#10
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Don't forget that most of the western allied troops would have mutinied rather than attack the Soviets.

	08-04-2005 23:56									#11
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It's one thing to defend and avenge yourself on an act of aggression (from Hitler's part) but it's quite another to be the aggressor. Russia was very careless with its cannon fodder, but the people put up with it as they were defending the homeland. I doubt Russia wouldn't have mutinies and revolts all over the place if they embarked on an unprovoced war of aggression of such scale.

	08-04-2005 23:59									#12
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"NO, 90% of the USSR's young male population was NOT dead or injured- it amazes me anyone chould think that- what the **** was the Red Army made up then in 1945???"

A good bit of the other 10%. The USSR is a big country. It's just a statisitc I heard one time, it might have been exaggerated, but it would be seem to be the case after everything that had happened the USSR would have a manpower problem...

	09-04-2005 03:18									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Don't forget that most of the western allied troops would have mutinied rather than attack the Soviets.

If you were not wearing your pink eyshades you would have noticed that the thread was about the USSR attacking, not defending.

	09-04-2005 03:21									#14
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Hail, Red Alert 1.

	09-04-2005 07:17									#15
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Actually, a Soviet invasion of Western Europe prior to 1941 would have almost been ideal for Germany. The Red Army was entirely unsuited for modern warfare prior to late 1942/early 1943, and it's advances into Europe would have been cut off and it's armies destroyed by the Wehrmacht.

This could also have led to cooperation between the Nazis and France/Britain against the Soviet Union, which, in my mind, would have been a far better historical outcome - I'd rather see the destruction of the Soviet Union than the destruction of Germany.

If we are talking post-1945, the Soviet Union was not in a position to do anything at all. If they had moved in the summer, atomic weapons would have fallen on Moscow and Leningrad. Even without atomic weapons, the Soviet Union was far too exhausted in terms of manpower to conquer Europe, and without continued Lend Lease, a huge Soviet war effort against Britain/France/USA was bound to fail. No question about it.

Serb? I'm waiting.....

	09-04-2005 07:55									#16
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Actually, a Soviet invasion of Western Europe prior to 1941 would have almost been ideal for Germany. The Red Army was entirely unsuited for modern warfare prior to late 1942/early 1943, and it's advances into Europe would have been cut off and it's armies destroyed by the Wehrmacht. This could also have led to cooperation between the Nazis and France/Britain against the Soviet Union, which, in my mind, would have been a far better historical outcome - I'd rather see the destruction of the Soviet Union than the destruction of Germany. If we are talking post-1945, the Soviet Union was not in a position to do anything at all. If they had moved in the summer, atomic weapons would have fallen on Moscow and Leningrad. Even without atomic weapons, the Soviet Union was far too exhausted in terms of manpower to conquer Europe, and without continued Lend Lease, a huge Soviet war effort against Britain/France/USA was bound to fail. No question about it. Serb? I'm waiting.....

You'd rather see the death of all the Jews, Gypsies, Gays, handicapped, then have the USSR alive, which would end up falling anyway?

	09-04-2005 08:17									#17
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If we're talking 1945, it would be impossible.


The air forces based in the UK were just way way too strong, and the USSR had absolutley no hope of ever penetrating that air shield. It's like the air forces could raid continental Europe and then fly back to safety on the island, meanwhile the Soviets would have absolutley no hope of ever getting there themselves.

	09-04-2005 08:19									#18
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Personally I'd like to see some information regarding the strength of the Soviet land forces in 1945.

Some people list them as "exhausted," but on the other hand, these were the best land based units in the world at the time.

Perhaps tactically and skill wise they were the best, but on a strategic level, sustaining these forces against the economic might of the US, would have been impossible. And also considering the manpower drain that had happened.

Stalin's purges and the loss of life to the Nazis are why today there are less men than women in Russia. Perhaps this explains all the Russian dating sites popping up all over the place:

Last edited by Ted Striker on 09-04-2005 at 08:25