09-04-2005 00:22									#31
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Why should they arrest them? They're not violating Mexican law.

	09-04-2005 00:47									#32
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Used to be countries tried to keep people in, not out.

	09-04-2005 00:56									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Brent Used to be countries tried to keep people in, not out.

And the advantage of Mexico is that it doesn't restrict freedom like that.

	09-04-2005 01:05									#34
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JP2 also reprimanded Blair and Bush for the war in Iraq "a defeat for humanity", it didn't stop them turning up as representatives.

	09-04-2005 01:12									#35
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You ***** about Mugabe yet say nothing about Cardinal Law's upfront role in the funeral?

	09-04-2005 01:34									#36
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You have to wonder about people who get all worked up about Mugabe when they ignore visits by massively murderous people like the princes of Saudi Arabia, etc. Oh no! A nasty guy is throwing white people off their farms! We must be outraged! Oh, that dictator over there is murdering thousands of brown people. Who cares? It's not like they're white.

	09-04-2005 01:40									#37
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What massively murderous activities have the Saudi princes been carrying out lately, if I may ask?

	09-04-2005 03:03									#38
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How convenient to be able to close ones eyes to the nastiness of despots, provided they're Socialists of course.

	09-04-2005 04:02									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist What massively murderous activities have the Saudi princes been carrying out lately, if I may ask?

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/new...873fec43ba9.htm

	09-04-2005 04:04									#40
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Mugabe could be the next John Paul II, ten-fold.

	09-04-2005 04:09									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist We should invade, occupy and annex them!

But they are protected by the swiss guard...attempt invasion and they'll unleash their swiss army knives against you...be warned, they could open your bottle of wine or file your nails if you're not careful

	09-04-2005 04:48									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Wow... such a fan of national soveriegnty you are . I guess that means EU countries should nab people like Kissinger in the US to have trials for them

	09-04-2005 09:49									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Boris, if we stopped eating with sinners, then we would have to leave this world.

God, you're so pretentious.

Look, the problem is that Mugabe is actively engaged to this day in inhumane acts and criminal behavior. I see no reason not to bar someone from such a ceremony if they've not repented of their misdeeds. Mugabe isn't going to be influenced by the Vatican. But the Vatican receiving him as such gives him credibility, which sucks. They're helping him continue to hurt people.

quote: Mugabe is a Catholic, however awful his practice is.

So someone who votes for a pro-choice candidate can be denied communion, but a murdering tyrant who oppresses his people gets a free pass? Nice priorities.

	09-04-2005 09:51									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But would the US be ok with, say, Mexican police coming into New Mexico and seizing people? I doubt it.

How is that analogous? Note that I said they should wait until he leaves.

KH: Italy may have the treaty with the Vatican (but they may not), but does the EU? It's the EU that has issued the travel ban anyway. They should prohibit Mugabe from entering Italian territory. Then he'd be stuck at the Vatican.

	09-04-2005 09:55									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You ***** about Mugabe yet say nothing about Cardinal Law's upfront role in the funeral?

First, I hadn't heard anything about Law (he ain't a Cardinal anymore, you know) as of yet.

Now, after reading up on it, he didn't have an "upfront" role at the funeral. He's leading a mass at the church where he is currently archpriest as part of the official mourning. One would suspect an active member of the clergy would be participating in ceremonies at their own parish.

	09-04-2005 10:21									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Wow... such a fan of national soveriegnty you are . I guess that means EU countries should nab people like Kissinger in the US to have trials for them

Who cares about the microstates? They'll do as there told, or they'll be annexed. Andorra, Monaco, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Vatican... all of them together could easily fit inside Rhode Island. Do you think that the US would respect Andorra's or San Marino's sovereignty if bin Laden were there attending a state funeral?

As for not storming tha Vatican, maybe it has something to do with the old fashioned idea of sanctuary. I doubt it though.

	09-04-2005 10:25									#47
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BTW, are Andorra, San Marino, Monaco, and Liechtenstein part of the EU? I know they're not listed as official member countries, but some of them aren't completely and truly independent.

	09-04-2005 12:16									#48
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There are a number of similar places. The Isle of Man isn't part of the EU either- however they all tend to have special dispensations allowing them to benefit from all the big treaty stuff. The slippery little weasels.

	09-04-2005 13:30									#49
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There's EU member states (which we know as being part of the EU), and there's "EU Associate Members" which is a roundabout way of saying you're in the EU, but you don't need to give us money, and you don't benefit from freedom of travel in the EU.

Essentially EUAMs are given to states who have applied to be in the EU. Cyprus and Malta were examples before they were let in.

	09-04-2005 13:38									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/new...873fec43ba9.htm

Kinky.

	09-04-2005 13:47									#51
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"
So someone who votes for a pro-choice candidate can be denied communion, but a murdering tyrant who oppresses his people gets a free pass? Nice priorities."

- It was only one bishop who denied people who voted for pro-choice candidayes communion IIRC, Colorado Springs

- Being able to take communion and being able to attend mass are two different things.

	09-04-2005 13:56									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Wow... such a fan of national soveriegnty you are . I guess that means EU countries should nab people like Kissinger in the US to have trials for them

If it works for the U.S. outside its borders with non-U.S. citizens, then....


In any case, the U.S. government has had a whole slew of people even worse than Mugabe through White House doors, as have plenty of other 'enlightened' democracies- Ceaucescu (when he was the West's 'chink' in the Warsaw Pact armour) had a few guest houses to stay in around the world, including Buckingham Palace.

We could also reasonably have asked how the leaders of Liberia, Iran, and the Philippines and the old Soviet Union's pet stooges could move so easily around the world.


It's one of the unpleasant aspects and fictions of international politics and diplomacy- the equivalent of Jeffrey Dahmer or Harold Shipman being able to swan in and out of international conferences around the world whilst at home their country labours under martial law or worse, and their people are deprived of their legal rights and the franchise and food and liberty.

	09-04-2005 20:37									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi - It was only one bishop who denied people who voted for pro-choice candidayes communion IIRC, Colorado Springs

Was he reprimaned by the church? It's still excommunication, by definition.

quote: - Being able to take communion and being able to attend mass are two different things.

Mugabe hasn't even been excommunicated. Since the purpose of it is to "correct" the errant, I'm astounded this hasn't been done. If the RCC finds his activities appalling--which I hope they do--then there's no reason not to excommunicate him.

	09-04-2005 20:40									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Winston How convenient to be able to close ones eyes to the nastiness of despots, provided they're Socialists of course.

Leave it to Winston to be completely wrong. Mugabe is thug, no doubt. There is, however, a disproportionate amount of outrage about Mugabe as compared with, say, the dictators of Sudan. Mugabe, as bad as he is, isn't even in the same league as Marcos, and yet his name aourses as much hatred as Idi Amin. Why? Well it certainly isn't the scale of his crimes. It is only because Mugabe is seizing the property of a few hundred rich Europeans. His crime is being Black and not being properly deferential to whites.

OMFG, he's taking the property of whites! He's as bad as someone who eats his enemies!!!!

	09-04-2005 20:42									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Mugabe hasn't even been excommunicated. Since the purpose of it is to "correct" the errant, I'm astounded this hasn't been done. If the RCC finds his activities appalling--which I hope they do--then there's no reason not to excommunicate him.

If they didn't excumuniacate Franco, why would they execomunicate Mugabe. Just because he's a thief?

	09-04-2005 20:50									#56
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Downplaying Mugabe's crimes?

How about false arrests, rape, torture and murder, che?

http://www.kubatana.net/html/archiv...R&range_start=1

"The well-documented and mounting evidence of these crimes committed by Mugabe’s government is staggering. According to the Zimbabwe Human Rights NGO Forum, thousands of Zimbabweans who oppose Mugabe are tortured, murdered, unlawfully arrested and detained, raped or abducted on a regular basis by the government and Mugabe’s henchmen. Other inhumane acts include the systematic policy of using food as an political weapon. If a Zimbabwean is not a member of Mugabe’s ruling party, she will not receive one morsel of the sustaining grain distributed by the government in order to feed her family."

Wow, starving people who disagree with you politically. What a trifle.

Maybe you think AI is some sort of evil biased org with an agenda against Mugabe?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Inde...open&of=ENG-ZWE

Mugabe is a gross violator of human rights. Dismissing him as a mere "thief" is horrifying.

	09-04-2005 21:03									#57
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No, he's a minor violater of human rights. Is he a thug? Yes. Does he torture and murder people? Yes. Is he in the top ten of the worst dictators in the world? Not a chance. And compared to past dictators, the guy is tame.

Let's put it this way. If China's president went to the funeral, would you be spitting bullets? I'd wager not, even though the dictatorship in China is probably the worst in the world today. But then, China doesn't steal white people's farms.

	09-04-2005 21:09									#58
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NK is worse than China

	09-04-2005 21:14									#59
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Only in quality, not quantity. NK doesn't lord over 1.25 billion people. I was torn between the two, though.

	09-04-2005 21:48									#60
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The thing about Mugabe is how rapidly Zimbabwe has gone from being a relatively (of course) prosperous and free country to being an absolute shithole. China is slowly (ever so slowly) moving toward greater civil liberties. Zimbabwe is rapidly losing them.