09-04-2005 15:20									#1
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" Neither rhyme nor eason do I find in one single page... these books to me are absolutely empty and void...
[...] I say it is to me absolute nullity."


The author whose work was being roasted had this to say of another poet:

" I consider him unworthy of the poets' corner of a country newspaper."

One novelist had this to say of a famously peripatetic writer:

" Filth. Nothing but obscenities."


This was one journal's review of a well-known 20th Century poem:

" Unintelligible, the borrowings cheap and the notes useless."


The New York Herald thoroughly roasted this play, because:

" It defends immorality
It glories (I think they meant glorifies) debauchery
It besmirches the sacredness of a clergyman's calling
And worst of all, it countenances the most revolting form of degeneracy...."


Any guesses at which 'classics' and writers are being shredded ?

	09-04-2005 16:18									#2
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At the 1913 Paris premiere of Stravinskys "The Rite of Spring" the audience was so appaled by the "barbaric" music and presentation that they rioted throwing chairs and debris at the stage.

I´d say that´s a pretty bad review And the press didn´t pull any punches either...

quote: "The music of Le Sacre du Printemps baffles verbal description. To say that much of it is hideous as sound is a mild description. There is certainly an impelling rhythm traceable. Practically it has no relation to music at all as most of us understand the word." Musical Times, London, August 1, 1913 (Slonimsky, 1953) "All the signs indicate a strong reaction against the nightmare of noise and eccentricity that was one of the legacies of the war.... What has become of the works that made up the program of the Stravinsky concert which created such a stir a few years ago? Practically the whole lot are already on the shelf, and they will remain there until a few jaded neurotics once more feel a desire to eat ashes and fill their belly with the east wind." Musical Times, London, October 1923 (ibid.) Composer Constant Lambert (1936) described pieces such as L'Histoire du Soldat (A Soldier's Tale) as containing, "essentially coldblooded abstraction". Further, the "melodic fragments in L'Histoire du Soldat are completely meaningless themselves. They are merely successions of notes that can conveniently be divided into groups of three, five, and seven and set against other mathematical groups", and the cadenza for solo drums is, "musical purity...achieved by a species of musical castration". He compares Stravinsky's choice of, "the drabbest and least significant phrases", to Gertrude Stein's: "Everday they were gay there, they were regularly gay there everyday" ("Helen Furr and Georgine Skeene", 1922), "whose effect would be equally appreciated by someone with no knowledge of English whatsoever". In his book Philosophy of Modern Music (1948) Theodor Adorno calls Stravinsky an acrobat, a civil servant, a tailor's dummy, hebephrenic, psychotic, infantile, fascist, and devoted to making money. Part of the composer's error, in Adorno's view, was his neo-classicism, but more important was his music's "pseudomorphism of painting", playing off of le temps éspace (space) rather than le temps durée (duration) of Henri Bergson. "One trick characterizes all of Stravinsky's formal endeavors: the effort of his music to portray time as in a circus tableau and to present time complexes as though they were spatial. This trick, however, soon exhausts itself." (1948)

	09-04-2005 16:28									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X At the 1913 Paris premiere of Stravinskys "The Rite of Spring" the audience was so appaled by the "barbaric" music and presentation that they rioted throwing chairs and debris at the stage. I´d say that´s a pretty bad review And the press didn´t pull any punches either...

Yeah, it's interesting how many accepted 'classics' have been dumped on when they were first published or performed.

Similarly, it's interesting to see how some directors and actors never received nominations for an Oscar, and how many great writers never received a Nobel prize.

	09-04-2005 16:38									#4
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom This was one journal's review of a well-known 20th Century poem: " Unintelligible, the borrowings cheap and the notes useless."

Eliot's "The Waste Land"?

	09-04-2005 16:45									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Eliot's "The Waste Land"?

Yes, that one's relatively easy. From 'The New Statesman' .


I like this one on a famous novelist:

" One excessively touching heart-breaking passage, and the rest sullen socialism. (!)

The evils which he attacks he caricatures grossly, and with little humour."

	09-04-2005 17:48									#6
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Orwell?

	09-04-2005 17:49									#7
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Possibly Dickens.

	09-04-2005 19:51									#8
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There's a great book called "The Lexicon of Musical Invective." It features a collection of all the bad reviews written against what are now considered the great monuments of classical music. No piece escapes being ripped by the prominent music "critics" of the age.

Wagner's works were called "the music of a demented eunuch." And Berlioz said of Wagner that he was "evidently quite mad." In fact, I think the book devotes 27 pages to bad Wagner reviews, whereas Mahler escapes with just 4-5. Go figure.

	10-04-2005 02:40									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov In fact, I think the book devotes 27 pages to bad Wagner reviews, whereas Mahler escapes with just 4-5. Go figure.

Well, nobody cares about Mahler

	10-04-2005 02:53									#10
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Yeah, it's interesting how many accepted 'classics' have been dumped on when they were first published or performed. Similarly, it's interesting to see how some directors and actors never received nominations for an Oscar, and how many great writers never received a Nobel prize.

The Oscar sucks, it has nothing to do with quality. Just a bunch of Hollywood hot shots kissing other Hollywood hot shots asses... The same with the Nobel Prize. To get the Nobel prize in litterature you have to be thoroughly unknown to the general public and your books can´t be sold in more than 1000 copies...

	10-04-2005 17:54									#11
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Possibly Dickens.

Spot on. A review of Dickens' 'Hard Times' by Macaulay.

	10-04-2005 17:58									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X The same with the Nobel Prize. To get the Nobel prize in litterature you have to be thoroughly unknown to the general public and your books can´t be sold in more than 1000 copies...

You mean like the unknown George Bernard Shaw and William Faulkner, Samuel Beckett and Albert Camus ?


V.S. Naipaul, Dario Fo and Gunter Grass ?


Pirandello or Yeats, Pasternak or Toni Morrison ?

	10-04-2005 18:01									#13
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God knows I've never read Lord of the Flies...

	10-04-2005 18:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse God knows I've never read Lord of the Flies...

# Time is still on your side, yes it is.... #


I like this one (should enrage a few 'Poly folks):

" ....his appeal is to readers with a lifelong appetite for juvenile trash."

	10-04-2005 20:22									#15
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^^^ Tolkien?

	10-04-2005 20:28									#16
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom You mean like the unknown George Bernard Shaw and William Faulkner, Samuel Beckett and Albert Camus ? V.S. Naipaul, Dario Fo and Gunter Grass ? Pirandello or Yeats, Pasternak or Toni Morrison ?

Precisely. How may outside the cultural elite has actually read anything by these authors? I´ve read "The Gulag Archipelago" and "The Tin Drum" I wasn´t impressed by either one...

	10-04-2005 20:36									#17
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Uh...so your solution would be to give it to Tom Clancy and Stephen King?

	11-04-2005 04:01									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Precisely. How may outside the cultural elite has actually read anything by these authors?

George Bernard Shaw is taught to most secondary school kids here. I'm woefully unread when it comes to literature of any sort, great or not, and even I've read some GBS.

The Nobel's are there to reward people who do great work, not people who are popular. That's true in all their fields, not just literature. It happens to be that there are millions of writers out there, and only a very small few are ever famous to a degree that most people have read them. An awful lot of literature, some of it very good, goes unnoticed by the general public. The Nobel's are there to reward great literature, regardless of whether or not it's popular.

	11-04-2005 14:03									#19
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Uh...so your solution would be to give it to Tom Clancy and Stephen King?

No. But maybe Tolkien and Isaac Asimov. Two writers who have done a really great work and single handedly defined the fantasy and sf genre.

	11-04-2005 17:31									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Precisely. How may outside the cultural elite has actually read anything by these authors? I´ve read "The Gulag Archipelago" and "The Tin Drum" I wasn´t impressed by either one...

V.S. Naipaul was taught in English schools as an A level text when I was young.

George Bernard Shaw is one of the most famous Irish dramatists and dramatists in English of the last two centuries- he's responsible for 'Pygmalion' and 'Arms and the Man' and many others, as well as being a famous polemical writer.

Samuel Beckett is renowned in two major European languages, and three countries.


Dario Fo is a popular Italian playwright, whose plays have had lengthy runs when translated into other languages.


William Faulkner is one of the United States best novelists and also worked in Hollywood- again his work is taught on American Studies and American Literature courses and read for pleasure too.


Toni Morrison is hardly read 'only' by a cultural elite- nor is Yeats or Albert Camus.


Neither Asimov nor Tolkien single-handedly defined their respective fields, and Asimov's creative writing is often lethargic- his work popularizing science is unfairly overlooked, on the other hand.

	11-04-2005 19:01									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X No. But maybe Tolkien and Isaac Asimov. Two writers who have done a really great work and single handedly defined the fantasy and sf genre.

Asimov's works aren't as good as most of the literature that wins Nobel Prizes

I own about 40 of his books, but that's the truth.

	11-04-2005 19:02									#22
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I agree

Asmov is good, not great even in Sci Fi

Jon Miller

	11-04-2005 19:03									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Verres ^^^ Tolkien?

Oh yes indeed. A judgment by Edmund Wilson, as I recall.

	11-04-2005 21:37									#24
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molly, take a trip up to Sunderland or Newcastle and ask how many have read a book by Albert Camus.

And as for the others, the reason that they are revered and tought in school and stuff is that it´s "good" litterature. As opposed to the "bad" litterature that the working masses read (if they read).

	11-04-2005 21:42									#25
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nah

it is because they are good

have you ever actually read Kings or the likes work?

fun, but definitely not good writing

or even good story

Jon Miller

	11-04-2005 21:53									#26
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I´m not saying that King is particulary good litterature. I´m just saying that the general opinion of good litterature differ from the nobel prize committes opinion.

	11-04-2005 21:56									#27
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eh, no I disagree

most people who read Toni Morrison (a recent selection) agree that she is good literature

even I do (and I didn't expect to)

a lot o fthe other people (Faulker and like) are just older, and oyu have people who don't like anything that isn't modern

Jon Miller

	11-04-2005 22:32									#28
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This is the top 40 booklist in sweden 2004

quote: Topp 40 år 2004 (p=pocket) 1. Da Vinci-koden - Dan Brown, Bonniers 2. Harry Potter och Fenixorden - J.K Rowling, Tiden 3. Alkemisten - Paulo Coelho, Bazar (p) 4. Tjuvarnas marknad - Jan Guillou, Piratförlaget 5. Asyl - Liza Marklund, Piratförlaget 6. Korkade vita män - Michael Moore, Ordfront (p) 7. Ett öga rött - J Hassen Khemiri, Månpocket (p) 8. Flickan från ovan - Alice Sebold, Månpocket (p) 9. Bortom sanningen - Anne Holt, Piratförlaget (p) 10. Ro utan åror - Ulla-Carin Lindquist, Nordstedts 11. Solstorm - Åsa Larsson, Bonnierpocket (p) 12. En annan tid, ett annat liv - Leif GW Persson, Piratförlaget (p) 13. Två nötcrème och en movipebox - Hammar/Wikingsson, Bonnierpocket (p) 14. Fruset offer - Giles Blunt, Månpocket (p) 15. Pojken som överlevde - Dave Pelzer, Månpocket (p) 16. Bokhandlaren i Kabul - Åsne Seierstad, Månpocket (p) 17. I ondskans spår - Peter Robinson, Minotaur (p) 18. Pojken som kallades Det - Dave Pelzer, Månpocket (p) 19. Inte enklare än så - Kajsa Ingemarsson, Månpocket (p) 20. Pojken som inte fanns - Dave Pelzer, Månpocket (p) 21. Patient 67 - Dennis Lehane, Månpocket (p) 22. Mellan sommarens längtan och vinterns köld - Leif GW Persson, Piratförlaget (p) 23. Typ trettio - Lisa Jewell, Månpocket (p) 24. Änglar - Marian Keyes, Pan (p) 25. Prime Time - Liza Marklund, Piratförlaget (p) 26. Gömda - Liza Marklund, Piratförlaget (p) 27. Skuggorna och regnet - Håkan Nesser, Bonniers 28. Napoleon - Herman Lindqvist, Norstedts 29. Ondskan - Jan Guillou, Piratförlaget (p) 30. Innan frosten - Henning Mankell, Leopard (p) 31. Det innersta rummet - Elisabeth George, Månpocket (p) 32. Allt om glykemiskt index - Fredrik Paulún, Fitnessförlaget (p) 33. Berätta inte för någon - Harlan Coben, Månpocket (p) 34. Pojkår - John M Coetzee, Brombergs (p) 35. I skuggan av ett brott - Helena Henschen, Brombergs 36. Lasermannen - Gellert Tamas, Ordfront (p) 37. Bakom stängda dörrar - K Hansen/B-Å Cras/A Cras, Ordupplaget (p) 38. Gud som haver barnen kär, har du någon ull - U Lindell/M Levengood, Piratförlaget 39. Flicka med pärlörhänge - Tracy Chevalier, Månpocket (p) 40. Silverkronan - Anna Jansson, Månpocket (p)

As you can see the first (and only) Nobel Prize Winner is in 34th place...

A quick look at similar lists in Norway and USA (NY Times best seller list and Amazon.com) shows that they don´t have a single nobel prize winner anywhere.

	11-04-2005 22:45									#29
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the ones I recongnise are not well writen, or particularly good stories

so yes, shouldn't get any nobel prize

for fun reading I don't generally pick good literature, and that seems that the general public agrees with me

Jon Miller

	12-04-2005 00:05									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X molly, take a trip up to Sunderland or Newcastle and ask how many have read a book by Albert Camus.

Or, indeed, have read a book.