11-04-2005 15:25									#1
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I'm looking back on the tech in SMAC and I'm getting kind of confused. Bear with me cause this post might get all jumbly.

For the Cloudbase Academy, Domai's quote is used;

quote: In one dimension I find existence, in two I find life, but in three, I find freedom. Foreman Domai,Cadet Induction Ceremony, Mission Year 2216

So this shows that in the year 2216 Doctrine: Airpower is discovered...and is, assumedly, possessed by the factions. We hit Planet on 2100. Ok, I'm just having some problems predicting when certain tech are discovered by the factions. For instance, the Flechette defense isn't discovered until very late in the game (Zeta-5 under attack by Progenitors in the quote).

Anyway, I'm just trying to figure out a basic timeline of tech discovery and I'm using this as a basis for my thinking. Lemme try explain, in 1940 jet planes were introduced...and now in 2005 we've refined the jet plane. 40 years. Blagh, I'm not making any sense, but if you guys could give me your view on when certain techs are discovered, or generally shared, it would help me a lot.

I'm pretty sure formers are the first tech shared with (almost) everyone...it's just those middle techs (like E5 and up) that are getting me confused.


Help please. Apologies for the scatterbrained post.

	11-04-2005 20:17									#2
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huh??

I'm not sure what you want. Are you wondering why it took 116 years to get Doc air??

	11-04-2005 20:20									#3
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no I guess that he want to know when late tech is discovered be everyone...but hounest I am not sure

	11-04-2005 20:57									#4
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well i figure that the only way to find all that out, is by playtesting. Play a whole bunch of games, and note when what faction discovers each tech, then afterwards extrapolate the averages, and there's your asnwer, a lot of work, but the only way as i see it.

	11-04-2005 21:49									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Mark123jansen well i figure that the only way to find all that out, is by playtesting. Play a whole bunch of games, and note when what faction discovers each tech, then afterwards extrapolate the averages, and there's your asnwer, a lot of work, but the only way as i see it.

It varies so much though. I've seen games where the Believers for instance are in a corner and a hundred years later are researching ind base. I've seen otherrs where everyone has doc air in 2160. The more players co-operaate, the quicker the techs get discovered.

	11-04-2005 21:56									#6
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Do you mean just in the game or actual hypothosising (err spellin might be wrong on that ) on when they actually discovered them according to the storyline ?

It would obviously take alot longer on planet then earth due to lack of knowledge of materials present / population / infrastructure etc

	12-04-2005 02:17									#7
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Apparently, Genesplicing had to be discovered pretty dang early, considering the faction leaders use it to live...

Also, I am guessing that in the storyline, most factions kind of already knew the level one techs...

	12-04-2005 06:45									#8
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I think he's trying to say that we have had jet tech for many years now and we're not going to forget it by going to Alpha Centauri. It should be a very early tech.

Second:The former is a pretty advanced machine, something we're not even close to. At least not to the extent of what formers in this game can do. By all rights it should not be such an early tech.

	12-04-2005 07:25									#9
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Note that the Doctrine techs are more "ways of thinking". Clearly a faction that has landed on planet should have rovers. The thinking is that with Doctrine : Mobility, the faction now understands how to put the advantages of a 2 move chassis into good use.

	12-04-2005 10:15									#10
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quote: Note that the Doctrine techs are more "ways of thinking". Clearly a faction that has landed on planet should have rovers. The thinking is that with Doctrine : Mobility, the faction now understands how to put the advantages of a 2 move chassis into good use.

Well really, if you can put a weapon on infantry you could just as soon put it on anything. Mankind didn't suddenly get stupid did they?

Even so, a former is far most advanced than a rover or troops carrying weapons in the early game.

I accept this as part of the game. I mean who wants to wait a 100 years or so before you can plant a farm, but many tech orders do not make sense in the "real world". That's all I'm saying.

	12-04-2005 13:10									#11
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Using only hand axes, a few thousand farmers in the 1800's chopped down 100,000 km^2 of forest in my State in just a few decades? (Why? Because the State govt commanded them to, or else it would confiscate the land and give it to someone who would.)

Compared to that, early formers don't do much more than a gang of convicts with spades, and I'm sure that's exactly how Sheng-Ji Yang prefers to do it.

As for needlejets, maybe the composition of Chiron's atmosphere affects combustion?

Balloons though, should be easy.

Infantry probably is mobile already. Elite Spartan infantry certainly is!

	12-04-2005 16:26									#12
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I guess my post was more hair-brained than I thought. I mean, if it actually took place....not within game. I understand that the materiels on Planet are different than those on Earth. I just kind of want to know when it's certain tech are generally found.


As an addendum.....


When a base says (1) for pop, what does that actually mean? 100, 1,000....10,000...100,000? What does that mean? I understand that that is a rough estimate and that a (1) for a Hive base doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as say...as Spartan base. The obvious population difference is apparent and they are probably rounding off their bases population, but how much does each base contain? Hundred? Thousand? Ten Thousand? Sorry if I'm thinking too much into this, but it's been bothering me and I kind of want other ppls opinions before I start using this to describe stuff.

But yeah, I wanna know your opinions on this matter.

	12-04-2005 17:44									#13
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I can't believe that you, a fervent follower of Teh Yang, have never obliterated a base.
Then you should see the number of citizens put to death in such an event, and you can compare it with the population number you see on the base prior to obliterating it.

But, 1 pop unit represents 10000 people in the game. (and don't start talking about a colony pod carrying 10000 people now, there's a whole year to move people to a new erected base).

As for the long time needed to get to the Cloudbase Academy, consider that humanity has to restart on Chiron, with a pretty low base population number. It's more a miracle that they succeed in having the planet swarmed with millions again a century later then not.

	12-04-2005 19:42									#14
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CBA is not D:AP but MMI btw..

	13-04-2005 00:17									#15
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I...ah...never obliterated a base. I like to think that the newly "liberated" population will fare better in the folds of the Hive.


....Now gassing or planet bustering a base into oblivion...
And gassing aliens is especially fun.

	13-04-2005 00:43									#16
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin CBA is not D:AP but MMI btw..

and, working backwards, suggests that MMI was discovered maybe in 2190 - 95 (with 20 - 26 years to build the SP - remember, the AI never rushes it as we do)

So the Drones had reached a level 6 tech after 90 years - that's about standard for a game with little tech trading going on, isn't it (and esp with the drones -2 research)

	13-04-2005 07:05									#17
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Maybe if you are ICSing...

I tend to get MMI pretty early, but not before 2200...

Usually I end up with Superstring Theory and Monopole Magnets by then, then can go for Tachyon Bolts...12-6 chopters kill...by that point, I stop building infantry and just build clean sam chopters...until I get grav ships, assuming I play that long...

	13-04-2005 08:57									#18
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I like to imagine the tech quotes being from the factions that first invented them. Which makes Miriam's quotes especially interesting: just think, she's the first to Psi Gates!

Spartan fans: sorry to observe that Santiago goes deathly quiet after Deirdre steps up the mindworm attacks.

I enjoy Zak's "conversion" experience when he realizes that all his scientific bravado (and scoffing at Skye) was folly and will soon count for naught: "Voice of Planet" is essentially a prayer for mercy addressed to a (slightly) higher power that he'd been denying for centuries.

Morgan's "Research Hospital" reveals his innate ruthlessness. Yang must have quietly admired the relentless cruelty.

In the quotes (and in the backstory), Miriam doesn't come across as fanatic at all. No "heretics must die", no "heathens must convert or perish", none of the stuff she's accused of by some other factions and their RL proponents.Miriam's quotes indicate her true attitude: "all factions are here to win, and I wish our faction could get tech faster, but I worry about the dehumanising consequences."

The way I play the diplomatic game she's a solid, dependable ally whom I _don't_ have to force to surrender to get along with just fine. So I summarise my reading of her mind as: "We Believers will fight hard if we have to, but a peaceful allied victory will do even better: second place is better than none."

	13-04-2005 09:52									#19
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Thanks Googlie, that analysis really helps me out.

Zak has an epiphany? Which quote is that? But yeah, sounds like Santiago and Zak both end up on the business end of a mindworm attack.

	13-04-2005 10:55									#20
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quote: I tend to get MMI pretty early, but not before 2200

In a SMAC faction 7 human game MMI would be around 2170-2180.

In regular CGN tournament (Large map, 4 players no AI) MMI arrives between 2175 and 2200 depending on how good the players are and how much hi-research factions there are..

	13-04-2005 13:47									#21
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Franky:

(Hmm, I have a very young nephew named Franky, but I don't think he's into Alpha Centauri yet: when I visited his family in February he and his brothers were playing some edition of Worms on a console. Fantastic 3D graphics, but no diplomacy.)

Zak would meet his end at the tentacles of a planet-generated wormstorm, along with the rest of the human race, but for his sudden realisation of the error of his ways. By repenting and building the Voice of Planet project, he staves off Mindworms Armageddon (original copyright Atari, I think, new improved product title copyright Zoetrope). Thus there remains time to build the Ascent to Transcendance project, if that's how you want to win.

As for me, I anticipate the catastrophe by various measures, for example paving my entire territory with fungus. It's the late game's massive mineral production of fungus that blows the ecodamage sky high, but wormstacks only pop up with ecodamage induced new patches of fungus, and there can't be any fungus growth where fungus already is, so i'm laughing. Just to be on the safe side, I cover my entire territory with my own locusts, and ample ground worms too.

Poor Zak never thought of that. Took Morgan (the faction leader I was playing at the time) to wise up to how to beat Planet's schemes by using Planet's own cerebral cortex as a defence.

	13-04-2005 16:01									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie and, working backwards, suggests that MMI was discovered maybe in 2190 - 95 (with 20 - 26 years to build the SP - remember, the AI never rushes it as we do)

What level are you playing at ? At trancend where I typically play I've often seen that the AI rushes SP's. Especially Roze and Drones has a nasty habit of spending energy/SC/units on that.

	13-04-2005 16:34									#23
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Googlies estimate was indeed poor as at the time there is MMI AI can finish a SP in 10-15 turns, but I suppose he was thinking that

quote: the AI never rushes it as we do

Meaning it never:
cashes in a 200+ mineral costing NeedleJetSupply built from instabuild and then finishes up by a regular crawler upgraded to have best armor and special abilities available (so it's cost is 50+).