14-04-2005 02:11									#1
	AU Mods for the Conquests Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

A bunch of the AI problems that come up with the epic game are also found in the conquests.

So how about fixing the Conquests.

General

1. For all Conquests, implement as much of AU Army mod as applies to the conquest. In addition, Napeolon actually starts with Multiple MGLs. Definately replace the MGLs in capitals with army shells. For the ones in another city, either turn into army shells or replace with the FP.

2. For all conquests involving some units given some but not all terraforming abilites, the AI won't use those abilites. Accordingly, those abillites should be removed.

3. For all worker and settler type units, remove that "explore" flag like it is for the AU mod

4. For all non-combat scout units, remove abillty to pillage like it is for the AU mod

Last edited by joncnunn on 23-04-2005 at 04:16

	14-04-2005 02:16									#2
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Fall of Rome

Problem : W Rome, E Rome building of cities makes it all the easier to collapse. The Sassidens (and all AIs) share this to a lessor degree, but the Sass and other civs actually have useful areas to found a city near them.

Fix: Remove ability to build settlers from W Rome & E Rome. Increase # of cities to lose game from 8 to 10.

Problem: AI Sassidens reseraches or buys Imperalism [a tradable tech ] and switches to it.

Fix:

1. Add new empty optional tech "Being Rome", same cost as Imperalism and non-tradable.

2. Make Imperlism require "Being Rome" and non tradable.

3. Add "Being Rome" to W Rome & E Rome

This will hide the Imperalism govt tech from the AI so it won't reserach it.

Problem: AI doesn't seem to use Leigons offensively in numbers.

Fix:

1. Remove "AI defense" and add "AI offense" to Legion as applicable.

2. Improve Garrsions to 1/3/1 costs 20 shields.

Last edited by joncnunn on 14-04-2005 at 02:41

	14-04-2005 02:23									#3
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Middle Ages

Problem:
On turn 1, tech costs are so high relative to the economy and the min reserach time so low, that turning research to 1 beaker is a non-brainer.

Fix:
Increase min reserach time to 150 turns.

Problem: Bryzantine techs get reserached (or stolen) by non-Bryzantine resulting in Bryzantine structures.

Fix:

1. Double cost of the non-tradable Bryzantine starting tech.

2. If a Town Hall structure in a capital would decrease chance or increase costs of tech stealing, place it in Constanopole.

3. Remove Querry from all areas of the map not in or around the Bryzantine empire.

Problem:
The King is too mobile, for humans its a free scout. AI won't use it that way.

Fix:
Reduce MP of all King type units to 1 and add wheels.

Problem:
AI doesn't seem to move tresure found in it's capital. It does move treasure not there.

Fix: Relocate all tresures except the Burgundy to another city in their empire.

Last edited by joncnunn on 23-04-2005 at 02:35

	14-04-2005 02:40									#4
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Rise of Rome

Problem:
AI starts with workers in capital. Human Rome starts with enough cash to buy them all before the AI can move them.

Fix:
Relocate all starting workers to a tile one away from the capital with a road.

	15-04-2005 02:41									#5
	Re: AU Mods for the Conquests Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: [SIZE=1] (...) 2. For all conquests involving some units given some but not all terraforming abilites, the AI won't use those abilites. Accordingly, those abillites should be removed.

I don't think this is the case - it is an exception from the rule that the AI only uses units for a special purpose if they have the right strategy flagged.We have some units in RaR which have only some abilities and AI seems to use them.

	15-04-2005 19:35									#6
	Re: Re: AU Mods for the Conquests Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Pfeffersack I don't think this is the case - it is an exception from the rule that the AI only uses units for a special purpose if they have the right strategy flagged.We have some units in RaR which have only some abilities and AI seems to use them.

AI Terraform flag doesn't work with merely having build roads checked. It needs the rest of the terraform commands checked.

	16-04-2005 15:28									#7
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Yes, the flag can't be checked, but in my experience the AI can use the terraform abilities without the flag.This was introduced with Conquests - to give the AI the chance to use those special units in the conquests.

	17-04-2005 00:04									#8
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I've never heard of anyone seeing AI Legions road in Rise Of Rome.

quote: Originally posted by Pfeffersack Yes, the flag can't be checked, but in my experience the AI can use the terraform abilities without the flag.This was introduced with Conquests - to give the AI the chance to use those special units in the conquests.

	22-04-2005 19:45									#9
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Rome Everlasting

0. Start with Gorbi's mod of Fall of Rome to it.

1. Then add Orthostis into the locked alliance like his doc says but wasn't placed in.

2. Remove ability of both Romes to build Settlers.

3. Remove one Legion in England.

4. Add "Allows contacts" to Barbarism

5. For the AIs with more nomads than starting cities, particlarly those in a locked war, convert several of their nomads into cities in good city site locations in the nearby area.

6. Remove ability of whichever half of Rome is played by the human to build a worker.

	22-04-2005 20:01									#10
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Japan Conquest

Problem: The AI simply can't handle a fast moving high defense unit moving through the land and pillaging. Wide spread useage reduces them all to the stone age.

Fix: Remove ability to "Pillage" from the Yamabushis. This keeps the high speed of this defensive unit but keeps everybody's improvements intact.

Problem: Can win in the second era due to equalivent of UN adviable in the second era in the optional tech.

Fix: Change the tech required to build this to Contact: Protugal.

Last edited by joncnunn on 27-04-2005 at 01:35

	23-04-2005 00:33									#11
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I'd remove it from the ninja, too. Get a ROP with your neighbor, slip some ninjas into his territory, cover them with Yamabushis or other units and reduce his improvements to rubble with impunity. The killer is that he can't even ask you to leave, which would leave your ninjas uncovered and vulnerable.

Edit: The more I think about this, the more knee-jerk it looks. While I know the exploit I described is gamebreaking (I tried it after I had won the only Sengoku game I've played), I also know ninjas can have some legitimate pillaging applications. The thing is, I'm not sure the AI will use them (though they will annoyingly use ninjas to snatch your workers), and I know the AI won't cover his ninjas with other units to keep a tribe not at war with him from attacking. Removing the pillage ability still leaves ninjas as useful units for assassinations, worker-snatching and settler-bopping, so I'm not sure it would be a bad change, but slipping one in to pillage a resource without going to war is also pretty useful and, IMO, not gamebreaking or exploitative in and of itself.

Last edited by Solomwi on 23-04-2005 at 01:05

	23-04-2005 02:30									#12
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On pillaging and the AI, I think that the AI won't pillage unless the AI defense flag is on. I have not looked at the Ninga.

Now, if humans can pillage with the Ninga and the AI can't, they might be a reason in and of itself to remove pillaging from the Ninja.

On being able to kick you out, I believe the AI still knows you have some unit inside their territory, even when it's invisible and hidden nationality to boot.

AI certinately seems to know who is causing them to lose units in combats involving them. (I'm not proposing changing anything about that, humans make excelent guesses on the true owners of hidden nationality units as well)

	23-04-2005 03:37									#13
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Just checked, and the ninja is flagged offense and explore only.

On this part:

quote: On being able to kick you out, I believe the AI still knows you have some unit inside their territory, even when it's invisible and hidden nationality to boot.

The key to what I described is having the ROP in place. Without an ROP, they can kick you out, but your ninjas don't leave, only your covering units. That's fine by me, since the ninjaq is then open to be destroyed. The obvious solution to this exploit, though, is just not to do it, since only the human player will.

Oh, and I agree that the AI seems to know who's killing its units. I've noticed that with privateers in epic games, too.

	27-04-2005 01:28									#14
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Meso America Conquest

Problem: The Naval Small Wonder is comptely useless given it's extreme high cost.

Fix: Lower the sheild cost down to 200 shields.

Problem: The AI will allow you to buy their workers which you can then sacifice to gain cultural points.

Fix: ???

	27-04-2005 01:37									#15
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Mesopotania Conquest

Problem: The last wonder gets complete early in the second era, ending the game too early.

Fix: Remove "Wonder Victory" condition, so the game continues until sufficent VPs are reached.

	27-04-2005 01:39									#16
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Age of Discovery Conquest

Problem: When your playing a Mesoamerican civ, the AI will sell you workers which you can sacrifice.

Fix: ???

	27-04-2005 01:42									#17
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Napolonic Conquest

Problem: Both France and England can win the game on turn 1 via signing MPPs for cities.

Fix: ???

	27-04-2005 04:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Napolonic Conquest Problem: Both France and England can win the game on turn 1 via signing MPPs for cities. Fix: ???

Is a fix needed for this? The AI isn't going to do it, and aside from that first turn it's not a factor, so wouldn't a house rule suffice?

Besides, anybody serious enough to be playing the AU Mod is, if anything, going to do this once, get a chuckle and a low-score "win" out of it, then start the scenario again for a real game.

	27-04-2005 22:04									#19
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Napolonic Conquest Problem: Both France and England can win the game on turn 1 via signing MPPs for cities. Fix: ???

This problem exists in all the Conquests, though I believe Napoleon is the only one where you can win instantly via it. In the others you can get very nice deals for MPPs/alliances if it's done on the first turn. As Solomwi points out, there's little to be done about it other than house rules. Simply don't abuse this fact and there's no problem.

	27-04-2005 23:35									#20
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Actually, there's very few conquests in which you have contact with most of the civs on turn 1.

On the others:

1. Mesopotania: No civ starts with contact with anyone.

2. Rise of Rome : Rome can get a sweet heart deal from the Gauls if they make contact on turn 1 for a MA that unblocks access to Spain [Marsellis for a MA], but that city is a tiny fraction of population & land area towards domination.

3. Fall of Rome: Rome unplayable by humans, barbs have very few contacts on turn 1.

Rome Everlasting: Could well have the same problem that Napolan has.

4. Middle Ages: Few contacts on turn 1

5. Meso America : At most contact with one other civ on turn 1.

6. Age of Discovery: I think the European powers are equal enough in power on turn 1 that sweet heart deals aren't possible, but could be mistaken.

7. Japan : No contact with anyone on turn 1

9. WW II Pacific: Japan in a locked war with allies. The allies are in a locked alliance. Domination condition is for a group, so it does no good towards victory for the US to try to aquire cities from their allies on turn 1. In fact, likely to be counter productive towards victory considering the corruption rules.

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 This problem exists in all the Conquests, though I believe Napoleon is the only one where you can win instantly via it. In the others you can get very nice deals for MPPs/alliances if it's done on the first turn. As Solomwi points out, there's little to be done about it other than house rules. Simply don't abuse this fact and there's no problem.

	27-04-2005 23:42									#21
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This problem exists in all scenarios that start with pre-built cities and contacts established. Gets ugly in PBEMs, as the first player can have all sorts of stuff for a relatively low price.

	28-04-2005 05:09									#22
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn 2. Rise of Rome : Rome can get a sweet heart deal from the Gauls if they make contact on turn 1 for a MA that unblocks access to Spain [Marsellis for a MA], but that city is a tiny fraction of population & land area towards domination.

Actually, Rome can get cities from everybody. Take a couple from Macedon, a couple from Persia and Pelusium from Egypt in exchange for alliances and you're off to a great start. The two you can get from the Celts are really more academic than anything, IMO, saving you the "hassle" of diverting a couple of legions to them in the near future. On the one hand, not nearly as egregious as the possibilities in Napoleanic Europe. On the other hand, potentially worse because it's more easily concealed as the game progresses. Still, I'm not sure what can or should be done other than house rules.