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Kirov
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Warsaw, Poland
Sep 2002
time: 06:17
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In my recent duel with Walek I run into a serious problem.
In a scenario created by Darsnan we have AI's tweaked so that they are incredibly strong. I play Datatech and rather late in the game I recalled one of the traits possessed by Data Angels, which goes:
^Gain any tech known to 3 other factions with whom Angels have infiltration: {Wide-ranging covert activities}
Well, in SP it's a single most useless trait in the game, no wonder I forgot about it.
Anyway, I got back to the game and quickly infiltrated 3 AI's (all of them had 8 techs not owned by me). According to the description, I should get all their techs instantly. Much to my surprise, I got NOTHING.
I know what you think: "Angels get only techs researched AFTER the third infiltration". That was my first guess as well. But...
But in the next turn I got 2 of the techs owned by those factions, and both of them were NOT researched during this turn (I checked the previous ones to make sure).
I run the tests in the editor. Playing (SP) weak Datatech I gave myself 3 infiltrations, all of them to AI's with about a dozen techs more than me. The results were surprising... I got 3 techs immediatelyin my turn, 2 more in the following one and yet 2 more in the following. But even then it was not all of the techs controlled by the trio infiltrated.
I could not notice any pattern in that which and how many techs I could steal.
While it IS true that Angels get EACH tech researched by their victims after the 3rd infiltration, it's ALSO true that they get some techs having been researched beforehand.
Does anyone have any information concerning this issue?
If not, could I ask someone to run the tests and confirm/refute my observations?
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirov
Anyway, I got back to the game and quickly infiltrated 3 AI's (all of them had 8 techs not owned by me). According to the description, I should get all their techs instantly. Much to my surprise, I got NOTHING.
I know what you think: "Angels get only techs researched AFTER the third infiltration". That was my first guess as well. But...
But in the next turn I got 2 of the techs owned by those factions, and both of them were NOT researched during this turn (I checked the previous ones to make sure).
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Are you certain that the two techs in question were not TRADED at all? I seem to recall any acquisition of a tech by anyone would trigger the giving of the etch to the Angels-- This is a recollection only but I thought it was irrelevent if the tech was researched or traded.
Easy to check in your case. See how many factions had the tech on the prior turn versus when it was sent to you
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Mongoose
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Harrisburg,PA USA
Apr 1999
time: 00:17
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It may be more like the PDL Secret Project than is documented. With the PDL, you do NOT get the tech unless you have one of its prerequisites.
If I were a betting man...oops, I am, rather...I would bet that the code for the TECHSHARE ability was copied and slightly modified from that for the Planetary Datalinks and that the need for one prerequisite came along with the copying of the code.
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Kirov
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Warsaw, Poland
Sep 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Flubber
That is one possible explanation of the manner the techs came to you . . . perhaps they were traded to other factions and the acquisition triggered the check. Other than that I don't have any logical reason for the observed behavior |
I have infiltrated only 3 factions, but yes, there are 5 AIs on the map.
Do you suggest that the from the moment I got the third explanation my special trait works for every faction, no matter if infiltrated or not? That when having three infiltrations, I get every tech acquired by ANY 3 factions in the game? I can hardly see any grounds for that.
quote:
Originally posted by Mongoose If I were a betting man...oops, I am, rather...I would bet that the code for the TECHSHARE ability was copied and slightly modified from that for the Planetary Datalinks and that the need for one prerequisite came along with the copying of the code. |
It is not that way for sure. I don't have prerequisites for those 2 techs I acquired. I checked also the editor - datateches can be on the tech level 1 and stille acquire even Homo Superior if it is shared by others.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirov
Do you suggest that the from the moment I got the third explanation my special trait works for every faction, no matter if infiltrated or not? That when having three infiltrations, I get every tech acquired by ANY 3 factions in the game? I can hardly see any grounds for that.
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No what I am suggesting is the possibility that the game checks whether there are any tech shares at the time that any faction acquires it. Imagine you have factions A B and C infiltrated and not D and E. Then faction D acquires a tech. The game checks and sees that A B and C all have it and send it on OR the game checks and sees that while D has it , only A and B also have it so at the time of the check you don't meet the criteria and will only get that tech if you meet the criteria at the time the next faction (whether infiltrated or not) acquires it.
I haven't tested this so it is just a theory but it might be the way the thing is programmed. Just a thought.
Oh and it would stull be advantageous to infiltrate the 4th and 5th since onder my theory, if you infiltrate only 3 factions, you get the techs that are held by those 3 only. If one of those factions lags badly in tech, you may see no benefits
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Kirov
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Warsaw, Poland
Sep 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Flubber
No what I am suggesting is the possibility that the game checks whether there are any tech shares at the time that any faction acquires it. Imagine you have factions A B and C infiltrated and not D and E. Then faction D acquires a tech. The game checks and sees that A B and C all have it and send it on OR the game checks and sees that while D has it , only A and B also have it so at the time of the check you don't meet the criteria and will only get that tech if you meet the criteria at the time the next faction (whether infiltrated or not) acquires it.
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I checked it and I think you're right, but I have to check it one more time.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by #endgame
If this holds true, how will it be handled by CMNs? |
Why would it be handled at all?
It was known behavior that you did not get all the techs that infiltrated factions HAD, only techs acquired. If you built the SP or played the Angels, you knew this going in.
It is a slight improvement if you get a tech already held by 3 factions you infiltrated if some other faction acquires it but overall no big deal . .. you still only get the tech if 3 factions you infiltrated have it
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Kirov
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Warsaw, Poland
Sep 2002
time: 06:17
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I run some tests again and it seems that Flubber is fully right. Well, it makes Angels nice in MP, but still not as good as I thought (I had no idea about this 'known behaviour').
Thanks guys for solving the mystery. Good luck to everyone playing Data Angels and remember - probe'em ASAP!
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirov
I run some tests again and it seems that Flubber is fully right. Well, it makes Angels nice in MP, but still not as good as I thought (I had no idea about this 'known behaviour').
Thanks guys for solving the mystery. Good luck to everyone playing Data Angels and remember - probe'em ASAP! |
Ya it was a shock to many the first time thay saw a tech in 3 factions hands that they didn't get. I'm not saying everybody knew how it worked but it has been discussed on here a couple of times
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by binTravkin
There ar major maluses in things you mention:
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If you mean "minuses" or problems, I agree. It would be much better if you got all the techs that 3 infiltrated factions had .
quote:
Originally posted by binTravkin
Trade in: you need something to give. So, in case you turn out in a disadvantaged position and are poor/nothing to trade for, you can quickly have tech parity at no cost once you infiltrate other facs.
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No you won't and particularly you won't in MP. Players will not trade key techs and relying on the TECHSHARE alone means you will be the FOURTH faction at best to get to very important techs
quote:
Originally posted by binTravkin
Steal: not always you will have a hi-tech enemy and stealing from a friend or "friend" (treatied but probably going to attack you in future) is not always a way to go, especially if you're weak.
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That sounds defeatist. Of course you can steal from your enemies if you can. My comment was merely that if a tech is held by EVERYONE but you before you infiltrate your 3rd faction, its likely a tech that is not hard to get. I always find that you have something that one of the AI wants and will usually in those circumstances trade with the weakest faction
quote:
Originally posted by binTravkin
So if you feel inconfident about your skills among the other players, take angels, infiltrate early and go on boosting your economy (as you don't need research that much). |
If you are not confident about your skills (particularly in MP) that strategy will ensure you get killed . Real players are much harder to infiltrate than the AI and many go to great lengths to prevent it. . . and if I am playing solo, I really don't want to wait the lifetime that it takes 3 different AI to get to Ind Auto while they get jewels like, poly soft, optical comp, SOTHB etc. I'll research them myself thanks and let them eat my dust.
Frankly, to me thats what the TECHSHARE ability is for . ... filling in those off beeline techs that are a pain in the behind but which are necessary to get to say . . fusion
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bluetemplar
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Marseille
Apr 2005
time: 06:17
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quote:
If this holds true, how will it be handled by CMNs?
Why would it be handled at all?
It was known behavior that you did not get all the techs that infiltrated factions HAD, only techs acquired. If you built the SP or played the Angels, you knew this going in. |
Not really, if you only play single player, there is much chance that by the time you build the PDL or infiltrate the factions, you will be ahead of them in tech or at least at the same level.
It's in MP when it becomes annoying : I post here because I just rush-builded The Empath Guild with the Angels and thought lighthearted that it would give me most of the techs owned by the 3 super-AI in the game (that would be about 4-7 techs). How I was wrong! 
It's pesky that another player built in the same game The PDL between 2114 and 2123, we are now at 2146, thus he got most of the AI tech... I thought to catch up with him
(And University AI has Hunter-Seeker )
I think I will just get used to that since the CMN can do nothing with it, it would furthermore be fastidious for him - to manually give us techs, if only he could do that...
quote:
Real players are much harder to infiltrate than the AI |
We're talking about Data Angels here...
They can infiltrate anyone in a record time - before you had the chance to get a probe to defend from - and if at the beginning of the game you plan a 100% sure probe defense you will greatly sap your development...
I'm not an experimented MP player but in the game I'm speaking of, I - or should I say Kirov since I replaced him in the game - Kirov already infiltrated one player, and I was about to infiltrate the two others (and would probably have succeeded as my infiltrators show) when I got the Empath Guild...
P.S.: Kirov, now I understand why among best SP's for Angels, you didn't put The Empath Guild...
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by bluetemplar
We're talking about Data Angels here...
They can infiltrate anyone in a record time - before you had the chance to get a probe to defend from - and if at the beginning of the game you plan a 100% sure probe defense you will greatly sap your development...
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So what if its the data Angels? If we are next door, sure I will likely get infiltrated but on many maps its an iffy proposition. If I am a bit distant with say a polar type start, its entirely likely I will have a sensor net which will see your probe coming.
I don't go for a "100% sure probe defense"-- For one thing its impossible but I do agree that you only have so many resources-- Thats why in some games, I do get probe-infiltrated-- Players make assumptions and plans based on their location, situation and the other players in the game. I know that if I have a human controlled Angels in the game, I would be making probe detection and defense a priority.
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15-04-2005 23:34
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