16-04-2005 04:45									#1
	War with DR? Maybe? Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'd like to suggest attacking DR as soon as feasible - and by this i mean sending the 4-5 archers we can spare right now, in that direction, leaving 1 behind to guard the home, plus whatever archers we will build in the next turn or so.

We're currently Strong vs. DR, which means we have a good chance going up against them, *now*. And they have at least 3-4 turns until their iron is connected ... meaning we can attack them safely, for now, until they do so - after which they have the huge advantage, not to mention the golden age, that the Immortals will give them.

We can beat them, into the ground, *now*, with an archer rush. At minimum, the first wave could destroy their iron city, guaranteeing we keep them out of iron; and more than likely we could take another city with it as well, finishing them off with the second wave.

We'd rely on BOH (who is stronger even than us) to keep Ankh-Morpork off of our backs (who may be allied closely to DR). We probably would succeed, there; AM is also weak compared to us, or equal, I forget which, but definitely weak compared to BOH.

So - what do you all think? It would require pretty fast action, on our part, to make it there before the iron gets connected.

We'd probably want to move one off the iron, *for now*, and only get back on if they get close to finishing it ...

	16-04-2005 11:26									#2
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Let me think about it a bit more. It's very promising that we could at least take one or two cities and hurt them before they can hurt us with immortals. I don't like not having a spearman or two to go with the stack for the inevitable counterattacks though, but that's just me. If we play it right then it is very do-able.

	16-04-2005 11:35									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill Let me think about it a bit more. It's very promising that we could at least take one or two cities and hurt them before they can hurt us with immortals. I don't like not having a spearman or two to go with the stack for the inevitable counterattacks though, but that's just me. If we play it right then it is very do-able.

I'm a very strongly offensive player - i prefer to have more offensive units, particularly against a weaker opponent. I don't think they have the strength to counter-attack right now, i haven't seen nearly anything from them with any attack strength >1.

The hope for me, is not to delay them getting immortals, but to eliminate it entirely ...

	16-04-2005 13:08									#4
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 I'm a very strongly offensive player - i prefer to have more offensive units, particularly against a weaker opponent. I don't think they have the strength to counter-attack right now, i haven't seen nearly anything from them with any attack strength >1. The hope for me, is not to delay them getting immortals, but to eliminate it entirely ...

All-out offense works well in an SP game, but does not necessarily work against a human opponent, particularly one who knows how to defend their territory well. If we had fast moving units, then yeah I'd say go all out. But there are too many ways an opponent can take out a purely offensive stack. For example 2 regular warriors and one spearman in a city could thwart us because they could attack with the warriors against 1 defense archers and defend with the spear against 2 attack archers. That's just a hypothetical, not saying it's going to happen, but it's possible. Having just one spearman accompanying the stack makes it that much less likely that we'd lose several archers before we even get to attack a city.

If the consensus is to go now, I'll support it. But I still would prefer a bit of defense too.

	16-04-2005 14:04									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Go for the throat

at least two cities, save a homeland defense force for a counter attack

If we let up early and stop, will they ever trust us again?

	16-04-2005 22:38									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill All-out offense works well in an SP game, but does not necessarily work against a human opponent, particularly one who knows how to defend their territory well. If we had fast moving units, then yeah I'd say go all out. But there are too many ways an opponent can take out a purely offensive stack. For example 2 regular warriors and one spearman in a city could thwart us because they could attack with the warriors against 1 defense archers and defend with the spear against 2 attack archers. That's just a hypothetical, not saying it's going to happen, but it's possible. Having just one spearman accompanying the stack makes it that much less likely that we'd lose several archers before we even get to attack a city. If the consensus is to go now, I'll support it. But I still would prefer a bit of defense too.

My main concern is the fact that waiting would be the difference between them getting iron and not. Although i think we have a city that is 2 turns away from an archer and can be converted to 1 turn away from a spearman this upcoming turn?

McM, can you do that? I think it is Nirvana, or U2, one is 2 away and -> spearman, the other is 4 away and stays archer...

	16-04-2005 22:39									#7
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Also, we can start the attack before we are 100% ready to go on an actual city if we need to - we can set up a few archers on the hill with the iron, ensuring they get no iron, getting a defense bonus against their pesky warriors, and still then waiting a few extra turns for the spearman.

	17-04-2005 08:15									#8
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Depending on how soon they may have the iron set up, it will still be several turns before they can pop out even one immortal. It is a 30 shield unit. I highly doubt they have enough cash to upgrade a warrior (takes 60 gold) unless they've been taking out barb camps.

So I think we still have some time. The best opportunity would be to hit them no later than 3 or 4 turns after they get the iron set up.

	17-04-2005 11:12									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Lets bite the iron now

NO IMMORTALS..for as long as possible


Would any of our neihbors trade them iron?

	17-04-2005 13:42									#10
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If we wanna hit them before 3-4 turns after they hook up the iron, we'd better move now.
Affirmative on the spear.

Snoop could you talk to DR and tell them that I'm a bit of a loose cannon, u have calmed me down a bit and the archer will move? They deserve to get it right back at them that way.

	17-04-2005 20:49									#11
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lol

Rhoth, the concern is that even ONE immortal is a danger, as they can easily win a battle and get a GA. It would be despotic, given, but still more dangerous to us than no GA...

	18-04-2005 00:08									#12
	Support Apolyton

An early GA with immortals can be dealt with...especially if they only have one immortal. The rest of you can't, but snoop and Witt have the example of going back into the Vox archives to see just what can be done against immortals. Vox was Persia, and outproducing their neighbor Gathering Storm. Vox had pathetic land and expansion potential though so they started a war with GS, outnumbering them in military in all ways. Vox won some battled and triggered their GA, etc. Then Vox lost the war through bad tactics on their part and good tactics on GS's part. That was about the time I came in to that game so I caught the tail-end of it, and read through several of the archive threads.

	18-04-2005 19:10									#13
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From what I have gathered from this forum so far, I'd support hitting them now.

As I mentioned in the intro thread, I've had dealings with some of those guys before and know enough that they are too random and too risky to have as a neighbour. Especially with Immortals!

The question is this: Will they anticipate our attack?

There has been some agro over the archer on a hill, they know that we know they're about to hook up their iron, and they will see that they are weak compared to us and so assume that we have been producing archers.

If I were them I'd be anticipating an attack.

We don't know if they have other humans near them, but if they didn't then they could well have all of their units in their iron city, knowing it will be the first to be targeted by us.

So bearing that in mind, and the fact that we do need to attack them now, how feasible would it be to create a diversion? If we can draw troops away from their iron city, great. Better yet, draw their troops into their iron city (Antioch?) but attack the one below (Aquarius).

Again, just some initial thoughs having read only the threads, I could be missing plenty to make all the above pretty worthless..

	18-04-2005 19:33									#14
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DR is a threat. This threat will only grow as time goes by...so on this note, I too concur. Hit 'em now and hit 'em hard.

	19-04-2005 04:51									#15
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Please comment in the turn thread, as to what we should be building. At the moment we are not building as to support a war - if the war is the will of the people, then please post supporting changing builds (or otherwise we shouldn't go to war IMO and i'd not support the war in any event without the changes).

	19-04-2005 06:18									#16
	Remove this text

Agreed. If we're going to war (and I think everyone supports it) then we should do everything possible to make that war successful. Once we have a few more units popped out then we can go back to settlement and improvement.

Err...I suppose I should have posted that in the turn thread.

	19-04-2005 14:24									#17
	Support Apolyton

Funny to read all the war supportive posts and feeling a little reluctant myself, despite having had a big argument with Moon and later Aqua.

I too agree upon a war. However, I see more fortune in a well coordinated 4-way alliance. I'd like to see that organised on the double. CM from BOH is working on it, input from us would probably be appreciated.

BOH is anticipating a pending war with AM. AM & DR are suspected to be allied, and BOH wants their ass covered, in order to prevent being stabbed in the back.

LB & Babs are close to DR as well and they fear DR too.

I think DR is most occupied by us now. We have been annoying eachother. Moreover, we are closest to their iron source and strong towards them. We will draw most attention without a doubt.

My insight into the situation is that we, Euphorica, part of the 4-fold Alliance, should take care of the iron source and prevent immortal builds. And only focuss on that. For that assignment, they'll expect us to go for the iron itself or maybe the iron city and will most probably heavilly defend those. I would like to suggest going for the road that connects the iron city.

	20-04-2005 16:30									#18
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I think you're absolutely right, I opened the save for the first time on Monday, and from looking at the detail, it appears very risky to charge on ahead and attack that iron city now. They are most likely anticipating an attack and will have their only hope, the iron, well guarded.

Their iron city is on a hill and defended by a vet spear (modified def 3 vs attack 2) so on average we would win only 29% of the time - ie expect it to take 3.5 archers to take out a spear.

I like your suggestion of going for the road, but I don't think we can avoid facing immortals. It looks like we won't have a good stomping force down there ready to start destroying things for at least another 7-8 turns. By then DR will probably have at least 2 immortals.

I think your suggestion of pushing strongly for the 4-way alliance and quick coordinated action introduces the least amount of risk to us, even though I imagine it would probably take the others longer to get mobilised and into position. DR cannot hope to stand against 4 of us and their defenses will be spread.

How are the alliance negotiations going? What timescales are the other teams providing for having troops in position?

We are plenty of techs ahead of some of the other teams - nice to have a carrot to dangle when proposing alliances.

	20-04-2005 17:39									#19
	Put an end to popups!

latest news
It seems to be 3v3. It is strongly thought that LB has allied with DR. As Andy mentioned, a carrot can make things happen and the DR diplomats have worked harder to get the carrot to LB. LB might fear the strength of the BOH.

BOH has initiated a war with AM. I suspect DR will silently be very happy with this, altough they are allied with AM. From their perspective the number of possible threats in the near future is now reduced to 2 (EU and Babs).

We now have a stack moving into the direction of DR. It's still a long way so there's enough time to discuss the strategy. It seemed the council had decided to move quickly.

I have high hopes for the alliance and would like to see commited results soon. We can take the lead in hitting the road, but will be most effective if DR is attacked on more sides.

	20-04-2005 19:44									#20
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Interesting!

Which one of us is leading the negotiations with the others? Has anyone approached LB to put fear into their hearts of BOH, and to dangle the carrots to join our side? I guess we need to ascertain if LB have actually committed themselves to joining DR - is anyone doing this?

Sorry if these are silly questions, but I can't see anything in the foreign affairs threads and as you all know this is my first democracy game.

	20-04-2005 20:03									#21
	Got spare money?

Babs and us and BOH will be discussing things this week-end.

LB has pretty clearly committed something, to go from tech worst to tech parity with the 2nd world (BOH+us are 1st world).

Were this to work out well, AM and DR would be done for, and LB if they join in will also. Leaving a world half the size of the one we started with, or nearly so ...