16-04-2005 10:51									#1
	Air Combat Inflate your Upload Space

I looked a couple of pages back and didn't find much discussion about the air combat model.

Do you prefer the air combat system of Civ3 over that of earlier Civs or CTP1/2?

I always had mixed feelings about it and it was a major concept change so I'm just curious if y'all want to see it back in Civ4.

	16-04-2005 20:34									#2
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I don't remember how it was in ctp1/2 and never really liked air combat in Civ games...

	17-04-2005 00:10									#3
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Civ3 is a bit better than Civ2, but there could still be some improvements. I do remember this being discussed at some point.

One very interesting thread is Navies 2 about naval strategy which includes naval air power in the OP.

	17-04-2005 21:53									#4
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What is the difference between earlier Civs and Civ 3. I canīt really remember... I donīt really use Air Combat that much, I just like to bomb the crap outta civs that are way behind me in development. When they can scramble fighters itīs not that fun anymore

	18-04-2005 10:45									#5
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one simple change that I like is you don't have to move each air unit tediously through every tile. Simple to select mission and target.

For example, improved Rebasing and scouting to eliminate extra clicking or keystrokes.

Bombardment versus a 1 on 1 attack. Specifc and dedicated Air defense unit... all new in Civ3 from Civ2

Last edited by Shogun Gunner on 18-04-2005 at 10:54

	18-04-2005 13:10									#6
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Oh, right. Then I definitely prefer Civ3 style air combat.

	20-04-2005 08:22									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Civ3 is a bit better than Civ2, but there could still be some improvements. I do remember this being discussed at some point.

Ditto.


For those who don't remember Civs 1 & 2, air units (including nuclear units) moved just like every other unit. They could travel over any type of terrain including water. Fighters had to return to a base by the end of the turn or they'd die. Bombers could spend one turn away from a base before having to return on the following turn. Helicopters could move around indefinitely, but would lose one hp per turn off base.

Air units attacked just like any other unit as well. So, you had situations where a bomber would be taken out by phalanx! Ah, the memories.

	20-04-2005 08:51									#8
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and don't forget about miscounting the number of tiles when guiding your bomber back to base...the growing uneasy feeling growing in the pit of your stomach as you counted backwards wondering if you had enough movement points to land that baby home....the despair that overwhelmes when you realize you will be one tile short....the resignation as you order your pilots to bail out -- wasting precious war material...

Or the ever popular:
1) Launch Bomber to the max of turn 1's movement
2) Lose that city which based the bomber to enemy forces
3) Realize that you had nowhere else to land your bomber wing, so it immediately becomes a kamikazi bomber wing

You could kill two units in two turns with one bomber unit....of course, losing your unit in the process. Where did they get that second load of bombs without landing the planes?

The bombers hanging out over a target fora year (one turn) was oh-so-realistic in itself. Civ3 air warfare = much better

	21-04-2005 00:55									#9
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Civ3 is a pretty decent model.

	21-04-2005 04:24									#10
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Some suggestions to the Civ3 model which should help a lot:

1. There should be a ring or some indicator showing the air superiority mission. Enemies should also see this, so they can judge the risks of bombing.

2. Strafe/Dive Bombers: Bomber unit which is more accurate and effective against land units and ships. Think of P-52 Mustangs shooting the Tiger on Saving Private Ryan, or Stukas on WWII. I find it quite dumb bombing tanks and infantry with heavy bombers like B-17. This of course means a some clever altering or utilization of the battle system.

3. Better recon. Maybe automatic, unless player wants to fly to enemys air zone (protected with Air Superiority mission).

4. Aggressive Air Superiority. Way to attack enemy Air superiority zones, to decline the enemy their air superiority and get a Air Superiority. Maybe Air Superiority mission could be made in to 2 separate missions, Air Superiority and Defend Air Space. Air Superiority would be attacking to the enemy air space, and Defend Air Space would defend against fighters and bombers alike, working like the Civ3 air superiority mission. Same effect could be achieved with only one mission, but at least I can't figure out a way.

5. The ability to form squadrons from fighters and bombers. Eliminates micromanagering, as you don't have to do the tedious job of ordering 30 or so bombers on same mission.

6. Ability to target a improvements in a city without smart weapons. In WWII, heavy bombers were used mainly to bomb on bridges, factories, airfields and such, so this is actually more realistic. Also there could be the possibility of Terror Bombing attacking the population, same way as in Dresden annihilation or the Germany's bombings of London. The difference with smart weapons could be the accuracy and collateral damage.

Ok, that's about all I could come up this time. And it turned out to be a lot. Comments, more suggestions, anything?

	21-04-2005 06:08									#11
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I like number 5 suggestion. Kinda like armies for the air -- which is precisely how Army Air Force was organized in World War 2.

Regarding the strafing, tactical bombing being more effective than strategic bombing of tanks, I would suggest there is more than one way to cripple an enemy tank unit from the air. The first suggestion, yours, was tank busting. Don't forget that destroying supply, command and control and morale can all contribute to neutralizing enemy armor units. Carpet bombing by strategic bombers was standard practice in France 1944.

	23-04-2005 11:46									#12
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to include fighter esorts within the same squadron

or go to the detail of assigning a new fighter squadron to this task

	27-04-2005 22:50									#13
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In my mind the worst thing about air combat in CIV 3 was that my plains could not sink enemy ships.

I seem to recall something about Pearl Harbor....

	28-04-2005 20:24									#14
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I think the power of air superiority needs to be increased. Also, get an AI that will try to use air power effectively.

	29-04-2005 07:54									#15
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From Ruma on down - all good suggestions.

I especially like Ruma's # 4 from above. Use the Battle of Britain as a prime example - with the Luftwaffe trying to gain air superiority over the Brits.

	30-04-2005 06:08									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Puupertti Ruma Some suggestions to the Civ3 model which should help a lot: 1. There should be a ring or some indicator showing the air superiority mission. Enemies should also see this, so they can judge the risks of bombing. 2. Strafe/Dive Bombers: Bomber unit which is more accurate and effective against land units and ships. Think of P-52 Mustangs shooting the Tiger on Saving Private Ryan, or Stukas on WWII. I find it quite dumb bombing tanks and infantry with heavy bombers like B-17. This of course means a some clever altering or utilization of the battle system. 3. Better recon. Maybe automatic, unless player wants to fly to enemys air zone (protected with Air Superiority mission). 4. Aggressive Air Superiority. Way to attack enemy Air superiority zones, to decline the enemy their air superiority and get a Air Superiority. Maybe Air Superiority mission could be made in to 2 separate missions, Air Superiority and Defend Air Space. Air Superiority would be attacking to the enemy air space, and Defend Air Space would defend against fighters and bombers alike, working like the Civ3 air superiority mission. Same effect could be achieved with only one mission, but at least I can't figure out a way. 5. The ability to form squadrons from fighters and bombers. Eliminates micromanagering, as you don't have to do the tedious job of ordering 30 or so bombers on same mission. 6. Ability to target a improvements in a city without smart weapons. In WWII, heavy bombers were used mainly to bomb on bridges, factories, airfields and such, so this is actually more realistic. Also there could be the possibility of Terror Bombing attacking the population, same way as in Dresden annihilation or the Germany's bombings of London. The difference with smart weapons could be the accuracy and collateral damage. Ok, that's about all I could come up this time. And it turned out to be a lot. Comments, more suggestions, anything?

P-51

	30-04-2005 06:12									#17
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How about Air to Air refueling so your modern Bombers can bomb anywhere on the map.

In CTP 1 and 2 you could stack bomber and fighter as long as you did not go beyound the fighter range.

	30-04-2005 20:47									#18
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interesting idea, but only for Stealth Bombers...or B-52s, not the earlier bomber designs.

	04-05-2005 02:40									#19
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quote: and don't forget about miscounting the number of tiles when guiding your bomber back to base...the growing uneasy feeling growing in the pit of your stomach as you counted backwards wondering if you had enough movement points to land that baby home....the despair that overwhelmes when you realize you will be one tile short....the resignation as you order your pilots to bail out -- wasting precious war material...

Sounds Familiar...

quote: 5. The ability to form squadrons from fighters and bombers. Eliminates micromanagering, as you don't have to do the tedious job of ordering 30 or so bombers on same mission.

Exellent idea!

Shark Fin 101

	04-05-2005 03:44									#20
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I agree with much that has already been posted. I seldom used the planes because of the tediousness. Most of the time I would have a carrier floating off shore with a bunch of planes that I would only use as a last option if I felt I was in dire circumstances. A squadron option seems like it might work well.

Cheers,

	04-05-2005 04:36									#21
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It would be great to see air units getting the same bonus/rank benefit system as ground troops...

And to add carrier task fleets too!

	04-05-2005 15:44									#22
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That's some great suggestions, Ruma.

As for air armies, they should probably be a bit smaller than land armies, as I see each unit to represent a larger amount of planes, and compared to the number of soldiers I think a less size would be right.