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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:22
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I have done tests and set up models...I have even created combat situations, but know I have come to the final step--asking Apolyton...
First off, I don't ICS...I don't use crawlers, and I never will...why you ask? Because then I can kill the AI so bad the game isn't even fun...but that's just my opinion...
So, assuming that I am not ICSing, not using crawlers (and therefore no energy parks), I would like to know what terraforming, and in a way, base building strategies you all feel are the best...
So far I have narrowed it down into four categories...
The first is ICSing, which I am not considering, so don't mention it...
Second, is a fungus strategy...not including the Manifold Nexus, and assuming I do not have +2 economy...with all the technologies, I could get 2-3-3, or 3-3-3 with the Gaians, but these advantages come quite late in the game...
Third is the forest strategy...simply build forests, tree farms and hybrid forests, do free market, and have bases spread apart...3-2-3 with hybrid forest and free market, and pretty early effects...
Fourth is advanced terraforming...using condensors to make all squares rainy, then building solar collectors and echelon mirrors...
I will post my test results later, but I just would like to know your opinions...
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:22
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Forest
The main advantages of advanced terraforming is to maximize ONE type of production and then use a crawler so the worker can become a specialist or harvest something else
Oh and if you are considering everything, you can also think about drilling to aquifer at some inland high points and enjoy the river energy
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:22
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I find it difficult not to think of using crawlers since my normal terraforming is usually crawled condensor farms and crawled rockies with boreholes where they fit and forest elsewhere.
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Ka Plewy
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quote:
Originally posted by Commy
I am wondering though, are forests still worth it if you have tight base-spacing? |
Define tight, given your ICS avoidance?
Even without an answer to your question I would say, yes, as it converts the majority of land tiles to more usable tiles with very little terraforming effort.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:22
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I must be a heretic as I have never suscribed to any set pattern. Mine would most closely look like your tight spacing but I vary the pattern for rocky tiles, fungus, rivers, to crate a coastal base, to avoid a coastal base or to land on a special. I don't think the world shatters if I do this.
I generally like bases within 3 tiles of each other so with roads a scout can rush from one to the other for emergency defense. I also will only rarely have more than 10 citizens working since I find that specialists work well and I generally don't want to turn on the psych fix. This means I don't mind closer spacing
I also build some bases knowing they won't grow past size 2 or so as their sole purpose is to be a military factory and crawlers can ensure they get the minerals they need. 2 boreholes and I condensor farm and a few mined rockies can pump out some nice high morale troops
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by #endgame
Terraform level will go Rocky->Rolling(Can found a base there) or Rolling->Flat (though why you'd do THAT is beyond me -1 mineral for what, a faster building of roads?). |
Thanks-- Thats what I thought
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:22
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Perhaps a useful way of speaking about base spacing is to mention how many tiles a base can work within the spacing paradigm. For instance 2 on the diagonal spacing allocates 8 tiles per base, or one for the base and 7 workable. This isn't as useful for Flubber's ad hoc spacing, but for those who tend to use a pattern it should shed some light.
I've used many types of spacing, from perfectionist bases with no overlap at all, to the tightest possible spacing (4 tiles per base, 3 workable). Overall I think overlapping bases is the best system, the amount of overlap is the only real question. And that depends on the type of game you are playing (single or multi-player), faction, game settings and your overall economic / military strategy.
One thing is for sure, you will absolutely not need many tiles to produce enough nutrients. Even with the tightest spacing (4 tiles total, 3 workable) by the time you get the tech for hab domes your tiny bases will produce enough nuts for a population of 21 (3 condensor / farm / soil enrichers + 1 base tile producing 3 nuts with recycling tanks * 2 for satellites = 42 nuts). Assuming that you are using crawlers to work your tiles, even these tiny bases produce:
21 raw energy from satellites plus whatever your base tile produces (varies considerably depending on your econ rating)
23 raw minerals from your base tile and Nessus Mining Stations (satellites)
42 econ & 84 labs from your 21 Transcendi
Not bad for 4 tiles.
Let's look at the perfectionist base at the same point in the game.
The perfectionist base has 20 workable tiles plus the base tile. Assuming that you have rid yourself of any fungus and leveled any rocky tiles your total base nutrient production (from 20 condensor / farm / soil enriched tiles plus your base tile) will be 123. Assuming that you have built the requisite satellites this means that your base can grow to size 123.
Of course it grows to about 16 or so before hab domes and only after you build your hab dome will it grow any larger. Unfortunately the vast majority of games are effectively long over before you get hab domes (whether in single player or multiplayer). As your bases will only grow one population per turn (assuming a pop boom) your base will likely only reach its potential 107 turns after you build your hab dome. So we're talking about a situation which is only really going to occur when someone is trying to build up their score or is taking part in a population challenge or something.
The rest of the time it's better to shoot for a more realistic target, which for most factions is 14-16 population per base. These are the sorts of bases that will win you the game. If you want more population, then you'll have to build more bases. You can build these bases on surprisingly small plots of land if you use advanced forming and have satellites (look at the example above of size 21 bases using the minimum 4 total tiles above). I advocate using about twice the tiles (typically 8 or 9 per base including the base tile) so that your base will be effective throughout the game rather than hitting its stride after satellites or advanced ecological engineering.
Let's take a look at a 9 tile base (this pattern typically assumes that each base will control all of the tiles it is adjacent to, forming a 9 tile brick. Bricks can be lined up in rows or staggered as desired). Let's also assume that you've built a recycling tank in the base.
In the very early game you won't have crawlers, tree farms or access to advanced forming like boreholes or condensors or soil enrichers. You won't be able to quell many drones most likely, which means that you won't be able to exploit more than perhaps 3 of your workable tiles. The advantage you have over the uber space efficient 4 tile mini base is that you'll be able to choose the 3 most productive tiles out of the 8 workable tiles in you immediate radius. A good choice here is to simply build yourself 3 forest tiles to work. This will provide you with a little energy, enough food for 3 population (with the base tile production) and 8 mins total, which is pretty good at this stage of the game.
Fast forward to the early mid game. You've built the Weather Paradigm and the HGP and have discovered crawlers, rec commons and Tree Farms. Now you have choices aplenty. You could go with a mostly forest scheme, where you use your forests to support your population, substituting crawlers when you get too many drones (turning the drones into doctors or at 5+ population into other more useful specialists). You could set aside a couple of tiles for condensor farms + crawlers in order to more efficiently support specialists and allow for higher growth during a fairly early pop boom while leaving the rest forest.
You could also go with a highly former intensive strategy where you build a couple of boreholes and support their workers with a crawler on a condensor farm and leave the rest of the tiles forest. What can't be worked can be (at least) partially crawled, though in anything more than a temporary situation you may want to improve most forest tiles that are being crawled as there is usually a more efficient type of forming for a crawler than forest.
In any event, this base can produce a total of 19 nuts with all forest, which is enough for 9-10 population. Change 4 tiles into condensor farms while the other 4 remain forest and your base will produce 27 nuts, or about the amount needed to hit population 14 while still producing a respectable 10 mins. Assuming that you crawl the condensor farms, you will have 10 specialists, which should easily deal with any drone problems while producing a good amount of energy equivalents for you to allocate as you see fit.
The all forest strategy really comes into its own when you get hybrid forests, which increase the nut output on forest tiles to 3. Now you can produce those 27 nuts with all forest. Assuming that you can keep your drones under control this base is really going to produce 18 mins, and 16 raw energy (plus the base tile) and enough nuts for a few specialists (or conversely boreholes with lower populations) making for a pretty good midgame base.
The late game sees the introduction of the soil enricher and the various satellites. With these all of your nutrient problems are long gone, and are replaced with hab limits. Forest with maximum borehole density (two and a fraction per base with this spacing) now returns 36 nuts total (with the nut satellites), which is enough for even Lal to reach his hab limits with the AV. There is no real point to going for any more nuts unless you are playing for score in the post hab dome era.
So even a base less than half the size of a perfectionist base can run balls to the wall (in size and productivity) right past the effective end of the game without ever seeing a production disadvantage to the larger base. In fact you can build two bases in the space of the larger base, and can do so more quickly for the first base (as it has to travel less distance), the second base's production is just gravy.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
I assume he means using a percentage of your energy income as psych, which many players consider wasteful unless for a GA. It's generally much more efficient to build facilities as needed in a particular base or to allocate specialists so that they produce the desired level of psych for a particular base than setting a global variant like the psych %, as much if not most of that energy is wasted. |
Correct. Except for GAs I pretty much see a psych allocation as a waste
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Archaic
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Washed up SMAC/X University Specialist
Nov 2001
time: 15:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Flubber
Correct. Except for GAs I pretty much see a psych allocation as a waste |
Just wondering then, what's your opinion on using it to create talents to offset drones created by aircraft and troops out of territory under Free Market before punishment spheres?
Damn that was a mouthful. ^^;;
I guess I'm probably a heretic as far as psych allocation goes, seeing as I use a 10-20% allocation all the time for various issues, but getting back to the main topic...
I pretty much subscribe to the so-called Sikander style myself, though IIRC, I've tended towards more crawlered Condensor/Farms/Enricher than he does. I'm honestly not all that experienced in not using crawlers, so I can't really give much advice on that original question that hasn't already been answered, but I'd have to say that 2 on the diagonal spacing with a combination of Forests (and the occasional Farm/Solar on rolling tiles early, until you can build tree farms), and boreholes on the compass points. The occasional condensor/farm/enricher on Nut bonuses can be a bonus too, though it might not be worth it for the loss of other factors of production given your lack of specialists thanks to the reduced crawlers. Unless you put cash into Psych, golden ages will be much harder. I don't know how important GA's are for your strategies, but I tend to try and force every base to produce them if at all possible. The bonuses to economy add up.
Of course, you said that you don't want to ICS either, which really makes things difficult. I'd still recommend a compact style 2 on the diagonal spacing though, even if you're going to go for a reduced number of bases. The military defence advantages aren't to be sneazed at, and you're unlikely to be attracting Planet Busters in SP before you can knock them out before they can become a threat anyway.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Archaic
Just wondering then, what's your opinion on using it to create talents to offset drones created by aircraft and troops out of territory under Free Market before punishment spheres?
Damn that was a mouthful. ^^;;
I guess I'm probably a heretic as far as psych allocation goes, seeing as I use a 10-20% allocation all the time for various issues, but getting back to the main topic...
I pretty much subscribe to the so-called Sikander style myself, though IIRC, I've tended towards more crawlered Condensor/Farms/Enricher than he does. I'm honestly not all that experienced in not using crawlers, so I can't really give much advice on that original question that hasn't already been answered, but I'd have to say that 2 on the diagonal spacing with a combination of Forests (and the occasional Farm/Solar on rolling tiles early, until you can build tree farms), and boreholes on the compass points. The occasional condensor/farm/enricher on Nut bonuses can be a bonus too, though it might not be worth it for the loss of other factors of production given your lack of specialists thanks to the reduced crawlers. Unless you put cash into Psych, golden ages will be much harder. I don't know how important GA's are for your strategies, but I tend to try and force every base to produce them if at all possible. The bonuses to economy add up.
Of course, you said that you don't want to ICS either, which really makes things difficult. I'd still recommend a compact style 2 on the diagonal spacing though, even if you're going to go for a reduced number of bases. The military defence advantages aren't to be sneazed at, and you're unlikely to be attracting Planet Busters in SP before you can knock them out before they can become a threat anyway. |
I use psych only for GAs myself, though as you showed in the compare game GAs can be a very powerful economic force. I used to constantly GA later with Empaths or Thinkers sometimes (with Wealth it gives +2 econ, and with Demo & Creches pop boom as well), but GAs are actually more powerful earlier and can more than make up for the wasted psych. I'd rather do almost anything else than use psych to deal with drones though, as you tend to waste large amounts of energy in your best bases which typically aren't the ones giving your trouble.
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Archaic
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Washed up SMAC/X University Specialist
Nov 2001
time: 15:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
I use psych only for GAs myself, though as you showed in the compare game GAs can be a very powerful economic force. I used to constantly GA later with Empaths or Thinkers sometimes (with Wealth it gives +2 econ, and with Demo & Creches pop boom as well), but GAs are actually more powerful earlier and can more than make up for the wasted psych. I'd rather do almost anything else than use psych to deal with drones though, as you tend to waste large amounts of energy in your best bases which typically aren't the ones giving your trouble. |
Speaking of that compare game and our GA styles....is there anyone besides me who actually uses indiscriminate constant GA's like that? I've not yet seen anyone else who didn't use them simply for controlled pop booming.
Agreed that there's an issue of energy wastage. However, I have to wonder if perhaps that's an even trade, in the position of needing to maintain an effective air force under FM in the late early game to early mid game, before punishment spheres. In this situation, it just seems too unworkable to feed a specialist base or specialist bases with the necessary amount of crawlers in the constrained amount of time.
In the specific game I was asking this question based on (NE3 on ACOL), I'm losing at least 100 energy a turn for each 10% of Psych investment. In that case though, since I'm still earning more than double anyone else, and have a research rate just as fast, it's not bothering me so much. But since everyone's worked together and caught me up in tech, I'm starting to get worried on the military side of things. I've got all the major military projects (Don't ask me how or why I was let to build the CBA and CF, then capture the CDF and CN, I don't know myself either), but I've simply never been as good at the military aspect of this game when it comes to defence. What should I be doing in these tense 10 years before AMA?
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19-04-2005 02:57
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