19-04-2005 04:07									#1
	Uses of Airbases, Sensors, and Bunkers Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I was just wondering, do any of you ever build these, and for if so, I am just wondering why...

	19-04-2005 04:22									#2
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Sensors yes, they are good.

Haven't had any use of bunkers and airbases. Actually, bunkers are a nuisance if there are a fungus pop.

	19-04-2005 06:33									#3
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The best use of airbases is in MP when you know you are infiltrated. The human player knows his opponent has x number of choppers, planes and drop units but if he hasn't spotted the airbase he doesn't know where they are-- Great suprises

Its also good if you want to create a forward attack base but fear that your opponents elite MCC aided probeships might steal the base .

I build lots of sensors

I never build bunkers. I have never seen the benefit

	19-04-2005 07:55									#4
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I build many, many sensors. Bunkers are rare, since when I'd really like them (early game), they aren't available. I never mess with airbases, but I haven't played many multiplayer games that late. My TCP/IP games are basically over by level 8 tech, which is when you can just start to get a nice, balanced airforce.

	19-04-2005 08:59									#5
	Re: Uses of Airbases, Sensors, and Bunkers Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Commy I was just wondering, do any of you ever build these, and for if so, I am just wondering why...

Sensors - Definetely. The best trick I learned here about sensors was building one on a future base site before the base is established. this does two things. One, the sensor is now indestructible. Two, it will not interfere with other teraforming plans (you can't put things like solar, condensor, borehole on the same square as a sensor).


Airbases - Only once so far in SP. Flubber explained how they can be useful in MP. In SP I was doing a 3 city challenge where I had to protect my extensive energy park crawlers from being picked apart. I placed several in the park and stationed interceptors there. Nice thing about them is that you can combine them with a sensor on the same square- it looked kinda cool.


Bunkers - Never used them. I guess one benefit to them is that they can slow down an advance. An invader has to use one unit to capture each one along the advance or go around them.


Mead

	19-04-2005 10:39									#6
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I've used bunkers, several deep, to surround my territory. They need to be available early (and aircraft tech needs to be delayed) so that ground wars can be epic. That's a task for the next time I edit alphax.txt.

	19-04-2005 14:55									#7
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I always use lots of sensors, I like the +25% defense they give. I also use them on future base sites for the same reason Mead explained above.

Airbases I don't regularly use, but I like the idea Flubber stated.

Bunkers are tricky, sometimes I use them to form a ZOC block to prevent enemy units to go through particular areas. IIRC when used on a rocky or forested square with sensor nearby, the defense bonus can be huge (x 1.5 (rocky) x 1.5 (bunker) x 1.25 (sensor), so a plasma steel defender defends at 3x1.5x1.5x1.25 = 8.4 (and if the defender has pulse armor (x1.25) and ECM Special Ability (*1.5)this even comes to a nice 15.8 for defending against rovers and hovertanks. Morale is not even taken into account yet (this means an extra x1.5 for elite units!!)
Off course you should also stack some good AA and trance defenders otherwise your units get shred to pieces by air units and/or mindworms.
Plus if the defender goes down the other units stacked in the bunker do not get collateral damege.

	19-04-2005 15:49									#8
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I use sensors...never bunkers or airbases. But bunkers could be good I guess but I end up holding a cruciel city instead.

	19-04-2005 23:09									#9
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quote: Originally posted by waab I use sensors...never bunkers or airbases. But bunkers could be good I guess but I end up holding a cruciel city instead.

How do units in bunkers fare against the self-destuct tactic? Are they treated like units in abase or units in the open.

My knock on bunkers is that I've rarely seen a chokepoint that was worth the effort of a bunker and multiple defensive units. Its my bias toward attack that would make me instead build a road down from said choke point one or two tiles so my rovers can rush out and kill something and then withdraw again. If its an area where you could conceive of having a sensor and bunker, in theory your opponent shouldn't have these things there. In the ground era, your enemy HAS to come into range and let you take a shot (or not attack). With no terrain or sensor modifiers, his defenders get killed.

And the beauty is that once you kill a few units, you are likely to have very high morale units tio potentially upgrade and use in future attacks. Plus the rolling attacking roadblock is mobile . .. It can go wherever you have enough time to plant a road and good killing terrain. If the chokepoint can be bypassed, your bunker is useless but those attack rovers remain useful

** Note that arty changes things as your road and mobility advantage can disappear in a single barrage. On the flip side it can make your prepared kill zone all the more potent if supposed attackers face multiple barrages on the way in.

	20-04-2005 00:28									#10
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I build sensors on forested tiles. Though they are a low priority and don't get built until later. I rarely build bunkers, and never build airbases.

	20-04-2005 01:13									#11
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After a little research, I have found that units in bunkers cannot be damaged more than 50% by artillery...if these means anything...perhaps building them on a square and building a base over them?

	20-04-2005 03:03									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Commy After a little research, I have found that units in bunkers cannot be damaged more than 50% by artillery...if these means anything...perhaps building them on a square and building a base over them?

IIRC units in a base cannot be damaged more than 50% by artillery anyway (except for probes-- I think spies suffer from super shellshock

Its great when you want to probe a base-- Give a naval barrage or two and then have your probes kill theirs with minimal effort

Back to units-- 50% damage can be huge. In many many instances it means you can kill the defender with reasonable certainty

	20-04-2005 04:10									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Commy After a little research, I have found that units in bunkers cannot be damaged more than 50% by artillery...if these means anything...perhaps building them on a square and building a base over them?

I've tested that you don't get (most) defense bonuses from terrain on the base square... I used to build Forest, Bunker, Sensor and then build a base when possible The only thing that helps with defense seems to be the sensor. Rocky, forest, bunkers (i thought they added a general defense bonus normally) don't help defense as far as I can tell.

I do use airbases sometimes... In my crazy terraforming games on massive maps, I like to be able to send Tectonic missles anywhere on Planet.

	20-04-2005 04:31									#14
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Probe teams will not suffer more than 50% damage in a base. Still, this will easily tip the scales in favor of an attacking probe team, and will cripple the mobility of defensive probe teams (if they weren't on infantry chassis to begin with).

	20-04-2005 05:02									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory Probe teams will not suffer more than 50% damage in a base. Still, this will easily tip the scales in favor of an attacking probe team, and will cripple the mobility of defensive probe teams (if they weren't on infantry chassis to begin with).

Really ??

I could have sworn I saw 80% in my SP game ( but this was regular SMAC with no patches) I'll have to test this with my fully patched version since perhaps this was a fix in one of the patches along the way

Agreed though that even 50% means attacking probes usually easily win (unless there is a reactor difference)

	20-04-2005 12:40									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber How do units in bunkers fare against the self-destuct tactic? Are they treated like units in abase or units in the open. My knock on bunkers is that I've rarely seen a chokepoint that was worth the effort of a bunker and multiple defensive units. Its my bias toward attack that would make me instead build a road down from said choke point one or two tiles so my rovers can rush out and kill something and then withdraw again. If its an area where you could conceive of having a sensor and bunker, in theory your opponent shouldn't have these things there. In the ground era, your enemy HAS to come into range and let you take a shot (or not attack). With no terrain or sensor modifiers, his defenders get killed. And the beauty is that once you kill a few units, you are likely to have very high morale units tio potentially upgrade and use in future attacks. Plus the rolling attacking roadblock is mobile . .. It can go wherever you have enough time to plant a road and good killing terrain. If the chokepoint can be bypassed, your bunker is useless but those attack rovers remain useful ** Note that arty changes things as your road and mobility advantage can disappear in a single barrage. On the flip side it can make your prepared kill zone all the more potent if supposed attackers face multiple barrages on the way in.

Well it might work that way, but 95% of the time I play Hive. I use to get the command Nexus so thats mean frea reapers in bases. All I have to do is build a base wear the enemy is advancing and stock it with troops. BUT it is very important to remeber defencive probes. If not you might get a well defended base you have to take

	20-04-2005 18:08									#17
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quote: Originally posted by waab Well it might work that way, but 95% of the time I play Hive. I use to get the command Nexus so thats mean frea reapers in bases. All I have to do is build a base wear the enemy is advancing and stock it with troops. BUT it is very important to remeber defencive probes. If not you might get a well defended base you have to take

That also works. One thing though is that the AI will often not attack if the odds are too negative so the result is a bunch of units milling about. Your chokepoint has to be absolute or they will just move arounf and begin tearing up improvements

Actually a base with a command centre and a perimeter is a perfect for attacking defense. Base your rovers there with a road leading outward and begin the killing.

	21-04-2005 01:23									#18
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Uses for a Bunker.....

Unlike a base, you can't probe a bunker with more than one unit in it. You can put bunkers at choke points or 2 tiles from a base to nail incoming probe teams. Additionally, a bunker built 2 tiles outside a base, prevents arty from striking a base. Then every round you swap units from the base to the bunker, and the damaged units from the bunkers to the base to heal. If arty is hitting the base directly, the units inside can't heal normally. You can also leave open bunkers on roads/mag tubes to force an enemy unit to stop for a round.

The biggest problem with bunkers is when you get them..... Advanced Military Algorithms. Typically the next two techs I pick are PSA and then Doc: AP. Once you have aircraft, bunkers lose most of their usefulness. There are times much earlier in the game where'd I like bunkers and can't get them. On the other hand, airpower comes too early, but that is a subject for a whole other thread.

	21-04-2005 01:59									#19
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp The biggest problem with bunkers is when you get them..... Advanced Military Algorithms. Typically the next two techs I pick are PSA and then Doc: AP. Once you have aircraft, bunkers lose most of their usefulness. There are times much earlier in the game where'd I like bunkers and can't get them. On the other hand, airpower comes too early, but that is a subject for a whole other thread.

Well I typically get D:AP BEFORE I get AMA.

Oh and my fluid attacking defense means that arty usually doesn't get a second shot at my bases.

I still think roads are your best friend. If you have a situation where you are mobile on your road network and your opponent is not, you can choose the time and place where you attack him and you can react creatively to flank attacks

A fixed point defense is just that. If that point is impregnable, its still not much help if the enemy goes around you. Don't get me wrong-- I have seen chokepoints worthy of a strong defense. . . its just that I will build roads and attempt to kill everything that moves into range

	21-04-2005 11:21									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber That also works. One thing though is that the AI will often not attack if the odds are too negative so the result is a bunch of units milling about. Your chokepoint has to be absolute or they will just move arounf and begin tearing up improvements Actually a base with a command centre and a perimeter is a perfect for attacking defense. Base your rovers there with a road leading outward and begin the killing.

Well I use to have a whole front of this bases, and of course rovers, and as some people has pointed out Bunkers come to late.

Buy the way is there somebody who knows if WP makes it possible to build bunkers, or is it only condens and so forth...

	21-04-2005 12:13									#21
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IIRC you can't build bunkers until you get advanced military algorithms, even if you have the Weather Paradigm.

	21-04-2005 14:56									#22
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@silkander

ok thanks...