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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:16
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I told him to state his offer, here goes:
quote:
MZ,
Certainly we have been neglecting diplomacy. Still,
perhaps we can better the offer that ND has made.
GS views this shared victory by GoWND as cheesy. We do
not observe a "victor" that has not triggered an
in-game victory condition or had all other teams
declare them the winner. In a case where a victory
condition is triggered or unanimous decision made,
that team, and that team alone, is the victor in our
eyes. This is what an FFA is, fundamentally, where all
teams compete to be the one winner. Alliances form to
help teams to that end, but the end remains the same.
Obviously GS has a conflict of interest when viewing
the current situation. Some people will have
different opinions, but also, some will share ours. We
ask if this is really how GoW wants the game to go
down?
GS wishes to continue it's existance and maintain some
sliver of possibility for a victory. We offer our
services in an alliance against ND. We do not offer a
shared victory or even a guarantee that we will work
towards GoW's ultimate victory. If GoW is to claim
final victory it will be by triggering an in-game
victory condition, and the same for all teams. What we
offer is an opportunity for GoW to have overwhelming
odds of being able to claim sole (and indisputably
legitimate) victory in this game in exchange for the
continued existance of GS.
Given ND's production potential, and the tech of Space
Flight you are almost surely sending to them, every
city and tile of GS' within 11 tiles of a ND city is a
good bet to be nuked in this coming turn. That leaves
us with Hurricane, Tornado, Cyclone, Blizzard, Sufu,
Inchoff, and Typhoon. EotS and Sandstorm cannot be hit
themselves unless we have missed some ND Nuclear Subs,
but almost half their tiles can. Needless to say, our
already dismal production capacity that was roughly
50-60% of either your's or ND's will be lessened
greatly. WoC is in ruins, and Tempest, our other
biggest producer, will surely be in ruins. EotS will
be half what it was. We will have no Rubber, no
Aluminum, no Uranium, drafting Riflemen and building
Marines. We will have no Space Flight, and no research
capacity to obtain it. Not to mention roughly 100 ND
units on Stormia to deal with.
GS will still have most of it's military though. That
would be directed at ND if you accept, otherwise it
basically becomes irrellevent due to the extreme
gameplay imbalance cause by nukes. By ourselves we
felt confident in being able to hold our own in a 1v1
with ND even given their inherent production
advantage. We still feel that given our curent
military we can hold our own in a non-nuclear war for
quite some time even given the extreme hit our economy
has already taken, and will take on ND's turn. Our
analysis of the situation was that there was no way GS
or ND could win the game if the 1v1 nature of the war
lasted, and that GoW's analysis would lead them to
take a virtually free ride to victory. That is why we
trusted in your word that you would remain neutral,
having been forced into the war by ND, and having long
known that GoW would always favor ND over us in any
equal proposition.
Between GoW and GS we would have overwhelming naval
superiority, numerical troop superiority, and due to
turn order, GoW could make sure that ND has no nuclear
capacity before they can react. There is no doubt in
my mind that GoW on it's own could achieve the same
thing without GS' help (as could ND if they chose),
but it would be less likely to work and would
(further) open doors that need not be opened.
Thank you for receiving our offer. If you wish to
continue negotiations after hearing these basics, we
can go into more details about what guarantees GS
would be required to make to have it work out.
- Aeson
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:16
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This was my reply:
quote:
Well I posted this in our forum and the result was rather unanimous: we wish to continue the course we have undertaken as of now.
The first and most immediate reason is a military one, which I am not at liberty to discuss (I will share it in due time, you might even deduce it the coming turn). The second is because we would be blatantly violating an alliance which has been clearly spelled out. Granted, you probably know that GoW is synonimous with loopholes and shady clauses. I will not deny that. But in our eyes, we have not yet violated a treaty so blatantly. Our treaty with Roleplay with the Bobian War was purely a mutual protection pact in case ND attacked them. It said nothing if we were the ones to attack first (sneaky, I know). Likewise with Lego we had no treaties whatsoever which means we were free to go to war at will, just like you did. In this current war we pledged neutrality, but never said up until when. And you can ask Cort Haus that I clearly mentioned that if GoW felt itself directly threatened then we would intervene, be it with you or against you. What was this inminent threat? Nukes of course. The moment GS obtained uranium, we knew that we'd be utter fools to wait until you got nukes since you had no treaties of non-aggression with us. And knowing how cunningly your team has acted in the past, it would not have surprised us if you launched at us instead of vice versa. Don't take this wrong though, if anything it's a reflection of the huge respect we have for you guys as Civ players, knowing quite well that given your limited size and strength, would use every opportunity at your disposal to win. I don't blame you at all, since I would have done the same (or should I say, did).
Things would have been different had GS never had access to uranium. Perhaps we'd have waited until you and ND bloodied yourselves to bits and we then would have swooped down on your respective rotten carcases and won. But right now we have two choices: either accept your proposal, offer even a diminute probability of you winning, accepting the fact that we'd spare you in exchange for absolutely nothing in return (not even an offer of joint victory), and blatantly violate a treaty which clearly lays out the path to our (co) victory. Regarding you accepting a joint victory, I'm not sure a defeated or even destroyed GS would be in a position to reject such a thing, in any case though, I assure you, we WILL win in-game-wise, most likely via the next round of UN voting. If GS chooses to accept the winner on the basis of the in-game victory, that is entirely up to you guys, but via whatever method we win, we will never recognize our own victory as being alone. I have also heard - though entirely unconfirmed - that it is possible to win an "allied victory" if you eliminate all your opponents except those you are allied in-game with. I would not know if it is possible since I have not heard this from a reputable source, if it were true, it would be another possibility for us.
There is still a lot to discuss about what has been going on, surely the AAR of this war will be an interesting read. Despite being enemies at the moment I nevertheless appreciate your last-minute approach. It was difficult for us (particularly me as turnplayer and evil-plan-orchestrator) to do what we did last turn since GS was a team that - unlike during the first half of the game - became a pleasure for us to deal with. I have nothing but respect for DeepO, Cort Haus and yourself for not only being fantastic Civ players but also allies in war, partners in peace, and now rivals in war. I think your diplomacy really improved alot and I really can't find much fault in it other than your over-cautiousness after the Lego War, though I find it initially justified due to the fact that you were then missing uranium. With that said I just want to restate that this was not a personal issue, nor did it involve any past grudges, nor was it a plot for being the strat forum guys, etc. ND and GoW each have had the power to destroy the other on more than one occasion in the past. Yet both of us refrained from doing so out of trust and mutual interest. The big difference with GS is that we knew that you could destroy us if you had the chance, a reasoning brought out because of our high regard for you people as Civ players. In the event, we had the chance first and we took it and I guess this pretty much sums up the story.
So again, sorry but we cannot accept your deal though we appreciate the effort and I am still open for any "off the record" discussions you or your team might want to have.
Cheers,
-MZ
P.S. Btw, there IS a loophole in our deal with ND though I doubt GS could manage to trigger it (but you are welcome to try as it's the only way we'd seriously consider breaking the treaty and thus win alone). Hint: it's in my second post in the Whore of Babylon thread. 
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Btw... the loophole is our pledge to defend Vox at all costs. If ND were to attack Vox, we'd have no choice but to declare war on ND. I know it's sneaky but if Vox attacked ND, then we'd have to do the opposite: attack Vox despite our pledge to defend them. So it works both ways, just depends on which treaty is above the other, IMO, it's the one which doesn't begin the conflict.
I don't want to actively get ND to attack Vox since that would be the utmost in betrayal, but if ND starts getting trigger-happy after we crush GS and plots to take out our little red friends, I won't say a thing, and if they start a war, we RoP rape their ass with no qualms
-MZ
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:16
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ND's plan for this turn:
quote:
Hi MZ,
we got this from GS this turn:
Hello ND,
I've sent Miniaturization accepted with a peace
treaty. This (Miniaturization, not peace) is to pay
the 180g balance that GS has been trying to transfer
to ND, as well as compensate for the time you've been
waiting for the payment and any difficulties incured
by accepting the peace treaty. The peace treaty is
just an in-game technicality to pass you the tech in
the most expedient manner. We do not see it as any
sort of agreement between our two teams.
You will lose WW (positive and negative) for the turn.
After re-declaring war it should return though.
If this isn't acceptable to you, GS will still view
the deal as paid off. We sent 180g to GoW 2 turns ago
as per the agreement with them in the public forum.
They sent 180g back instead of passing it on to you
though. We felt obligated to try one more time to pay
it off, but given the nature of your relationship with
GoW and their technically already having recieved the
payment, we will not go further out of our way to do
so.
Regards,
Aeson
So we have now mini and war with GS.
The statistic of lost untis:
Mil GS:
2 Settler (-1)
14 Worker
7 Marine (-1)
42 Tank (-10)
58 MechInf (-24) !
0 Ari (-14)
3 Cruise Missle
15 Transporter
5 Carrier
9 Submarine (-2)
13 Destroyer (-1)
10 Battleship
2 Nuc Sub
15 Bomber
6 Jet Fighter (-1)
Mil Lego (Despotism):
Mil near "Lego Memorial"
1 Settler
0 Rifleman (-1)
5 Inf
2 Tank
1 Transporter
You'll get another statistic after we play (and nuke) GS
And a pic of the new situation, we will nuke orangesoda (alu), other goals
will be discuss, we have really hard problems with the ww so we can't build
six nukes, looks like four nukes.
zeri
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I don't get it. GS is at war with both of us, what do they win by being "honorable" and giving the last part of a trade deal that ND had with them? For all that's concerened the moment the **** hit the fan all deals between everyone went to hell.
I think that's the problem with GS diplomacy. They acted or attempted to act so honorably that they ended up feeling like robots rather than a human team naturally inclined to backstab and betray. I sure as well would not have sent crap had I been in GS's shoes right now.
Btw, in case you didn't read the text, ND expects to have and use about 4 nukes this turn.
-MZ
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20-04-2005 06:14
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