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Bereta_Eder
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I've been reading that the new immigration laws will require immigrants to take a greek language and civilization test amongst other things. That will give them the right to stay for more time. Among all the immigrants in Greece (10%+ of the population of 10 million) the Albanians are 750,000, that is the 1/3 of the total albanian population. The GDP they return to their countries (together with the Albanians from Italy) accounts for 50% of the total albanian GDP.
Now. The majority of them is hard working. But the top list of criminals and there's a crime wave after crime wave here is albanian after the greek crime. These are facts. And they can be explained.
Now There are a lot of people from Pakistan. They have never given rise to crime. Then there are a lot of chinese. They may bring very cheap products and close down greek businesses but they are not prone to crime either.
But. Albanians do speak greek fluently, do know the country's history and they will be the most likely to ace the exams. The Pakistanis and Chinese do not speak greek and have only vague ideas about greek history. They will fail the exams.
Am I right in assuming that a country has the right to choose where its immigrants come from? And if that's the case then I see no meaning at all in the government's plan to put these plans in action when it is painfully obvious that they will benefit some and put others in disadvantage, and those who will be put on disadvantage are much less prone to crime than those who will be given the advantage. Doesn't make sense.
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Bereta_Eder
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You raise an interesting point Spiffor. There is actually a choice:
Do we want an immigrant group who's members are prominent to crime and that is heavy crime (rapes, murders, and burglaries of all sorts and shootings), who get drunk on the pavement and stare at you like they are ready to kill you in your own neighborhood but who a large part of them (by far the largest part of them) is already integrated with their children going to school etc.
Or do we want groups which are always polite, do not get drunk and cause problems and have no inclination to crime. But who at the same time will need a far longer time to integrate if they will at all.
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:34
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If the Chinese need to know Greek in order to get into Greece they will learn it. They're quite capable...
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
Am I right in assuming that a country has the right to choose where its immigrants come from? |
No. Have you ever considered that many Albanians are prone to crime because your society is extremely intolerant towards them and perhaps have marginalized them just a bit too? We have quite a few Albanians here in Canada too, and guess what, no crime wave. Gee, what a coincidence.
So, no. You can't choose what countries your immigrants come from for your own xenophobic pruposes. At least not officially.
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
No. Have you ever considered that many Albanians are prone to crime because your society is extremely intolerant towards them and perhaps have marginalized them just a bit too? |
Yes I have. That is still, assuming it happens, no excuse for heavy crime.
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
You raise an interesting point Spiffor. There is actually a choice:
Do we want an immigrant group who's members are prominent to crime and that is heavy crime (rapes, murders, and burglaries of all sorts and shootings), who get drunk on the pavement and stare at you like they are ready to kill you in your own neighborhood but who a large part of them (by far the largest part of them) is already integrated with their children going to school etc.
Or do we want groups which are always polite, do not get drunk and cause problems and have no inclination to crime. But who at the same time will need a far longer time to integrate if they will at all. |
Again, its not them its you. How a country treats its immigrants will decide how those immigrants act in their new country. And from the ethno-centric arrogance I've deteted from alot of Greeks on these boards, I'd probably want to start a crime wave as a non-Greek immigrant there too.
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Bereta_Eder
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Fine. Although you simply repeat your first point.
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
Fine. Although you simply repeat your first point. |
What new is there to say?
Albanians come to Greece. Greeks marginalize Albanians, calling them "cultureless barbarians...'culture oozes from our pores' *spit*". Albanians turn to crime.
I'm just saying, if the behaviour of the Greeks on this board towards non-Greek culture is any indication of how Greeks treat their immigrants, then it should be no surprise why certain ethnic groups would cause more trouble than others in Greece. And I'm pretty sure it is, as I've been friends with quite a few Greeks growing up. Greeks and ethno-centricism tend to go hand in hand.
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
How a country treats its immigrants will decide how those immigrants act in their new country. |
While I don't believe it's that simple (and "their new country" sounds a bit naive) I agree that plays a very large role. However there is a clear question asked above and you seem to paint all immigrants with the same brush whereas there are very serious differences between different immigrant groups.
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Caligastia
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Blaming the crime on the way Greeks treat Albanians doesn't make sense. If Albanians commit crimes because they have been marginalized, why haven't Chinese and Pakistani immigrants been marginalized? Perhaps because they don't commit crimes in the first place.
If Albanians are being marginalized, they probably brought it on themselves.
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
While I don't believe it's that simple (and "their new country" sounds a bit naive) I agree that plays a very large role. However there is a clear question asked above and you seem to paint all immigrants with the same brush whereas there are very serious differences between different immigrant groups. |
I know, and I think the fact that Greeks have a history of belittling their balkan neighbours plays a part in this.
quote:
Blaming the crime on the way Greeks treat Albanians doesn't make sense. If Albanians commit crimes because they have been marginalized, why haven't Chinese and Pakistani immigrants been marginalized? Perhaps because they don't commit crimes in the first place.
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Like I said to Paiktis, Greeks and Albanians have a history of misunderstanding, while Greeks and Pakistanis or Chinese do not. Plus, judging from Paiktis' post, there seems to be a degree of "good immigrant, bad immigrant" here... which no doubt adds to all this.
quote:
If Albanians are being marginalized, they probably brought it on themselves. |
Thats a bit simplistic.
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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Shouldn't this thread be on FFZ?
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Caligastia
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No doubt the history between the Albanians and the Greeks plays a part, but the Albanians must take some of the blame for their behaviour. They can choose whether to re-enforce the stereotype or not. If they have a bad image, it is up to them to change it. Saying "we are marginalized" is no excuse for criminal behaviour.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
So, no. You can't choose what countries your immigrants come from for your own xenophobic pruposes. At least not officially. |
What a ridiculous statement. Any group of people should have the right to exclude members of other groups if they wish - especially members of groups that are hostile towards them.
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
If they have a bad image, it is up to them to change it. Saying "we are marginalized" is no excuse for criminal behaviour. |
Of course it isn't. But I don't think it has to do with Albanians having a bad image. I would attribute it more to Greek prejudice against them by preventing them from getting good paying jobs and from advancing in the jobs they do get. Like I said, Greeks (thought not all) are an incredibly ethno-centric people, and I can only imagine what it would be like to be a non-Greek in that country. Especially coming from a country which hasn't been on the best of terms with Greece.
quote:
What a ridiculous statement. Any group of people should have the right to exclude members of other groups if they wish - especially members of groups that are hostile towards them. |
Of course they have the right to do it, I'm just saying those kind of xenophobic actions and attitudes are usually masked by a poor excuse for national security.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Of course it isn't. But I don't think it has to do with Albanians having a bad image. I would attribute it more to Greek prejudice against them by preventing them from getting good paying jobs and from advancing in the jobs they do get. Like I said, Greeks (thought not all) are an incredibly ethno-centric people, and I can only imagine what it would be like to be a non-Greek in that country. Especially coming from a country which hasn't been on the best of terms with Greece. |
By saying that the higher Albanian crime rate is due to Greek prejudice against them you make excuses for them. As I said before - there is NO EXCUSE.
If the Albanians living in Greece don't like the way they are treated they have two choices - try to improve their image or go back to Albania.
quote:
Of course they have the right to do it, I'm just saying those kind of xenophobic actions and attitudes are usually masked by a poor excuse for national security. |
Can you expand on that a bit?
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
If the Albanians living in Greece don't like the way they are treated they have two choices - try to improve their image or go back to Albania. |
Try telling a black American living in the heart of the South to "improve" his or her image in order to get jobs or advancements.
Sometimes its not entirely the individual's fault if they can't succeed in a particular society. I think often times there are historical and social precendents that work against people - which is what I believe is at least partially to blame with the case of Albanians in Greece.
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Dr Strangelove
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Does Greece allow immigrants to become citizens? What are the requirements?
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VetLegion
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How many Greek girls would marry an Albanian? All the language tests in the world won't integrate them if there is no cross-marriage. They could coexist peacefuly, near-but-separate, but I wouldn't call it integration.
I predict that Greeks will have no (bigger than now) problems with Albanians while the economy is doing fine. Once a significant crisis happens, we might see anything.
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VetLegion
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Nah. Even if the girl would, her mom, granny and entire family would be against it. Albanians are mostly muslims. In 500 years of benevolent Turkish rule (bless them), when peace, law and order was the rule in Greece, there wasn't a single mixed marriage recorded, because Turks are muslims.
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20-04-2005 22:21
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