23-04-2005 02:45									#31
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What extra benefits does marriage give to society that a union doesn't ?

	23-04-2005 02:48									#32
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Recognition that gay people are every bit as equal as straight people.

	23-04-2005 02:51									#33
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or as dumb as straight people.

	23-04-2005 03:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Recognition that gay people are every bit as equal as straight people.

While I of course support the idea of equal rights and treatment, a gay couple can not be considered truly equal to a straight couple.
A straight couple can produce children that they raise. Kids that carry their genes.

Ofc I don't think being biological father is so important... but still there is a difference.

	23-04-2005 03:37									#35
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Spain

Heresson's lame attempt to defend homophobia in the "institution of marriage"

	23-04-2005 04:49									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Unions + Marriages - You can not mix institution of marriage, which is supported by the state due to its benefits to society, with gay couple unions.

Gay marriage benefits society, too. So there.

Could you take your self-loathing to other subjects, please?

	23-04-2005 05:42									#37
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quote: I'm a little puzzled - how can Spain be number three ? It seems that it must be seven or eight ?

What are you speaking about?

	23-04-2005 06:21									#39
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quote: I don't guess gays will wed in a chapel.

What kind of strange question is this? Why wouldn't they?

	23-04-2005 07:05									#40
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I love lefties making fun of fanatics by being fanatical

I love more that they think there is a difference.

	23-04-2005 10:28									#41
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The Irony of claiming gay marriage is fanatical is very funny.

	23-04-2005 13:08									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij quote: I don't guess gays will wed in a chapel. What kind of strange question is this? Why wouldn't they?

ah well... I thought the term chapel refers to a religious place owned and run by those who express against gay marriage... I looked it up on dict.org... says nothing about a religion involved.. WordNet: a place of worship that has its own altar

	23-04-2005 13:48									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa After all it was only here that I met the first person who said was not baptized. I guess hardly to happen in Austria.

Really? I had 3 in my class alone...

quote: Además en Spain you don't need to pay for church, which is the stupidness in Austria and the cause on why I'll break with them once I've finished my university career.

Exactly what I'll do. There was a problem that my g/f wanted a RC wedding (not because of faith reasons, rather because "it's supposed to be that way"), but I've already convinced her and her family that in case that we'll wed, we'll put on stage an individually planned atheist "ceremony". I.e. hijacking and altering elements from church ceremonies, having a pseudo-priest (I already have a friend of ours in mind) who asks us questions about being faithful and true and all kinds of brimborium.

	23-04-2005 15:02									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Yes, Spain has a Christian heritage. It also has a Muslim one.

Yes, and the Muslim one was the more tolerant.

	23-04-2005 15:24									#45
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Yes, and the Muslim one was the more tolerant.

That's only partially true. The most tolerant time was the first 2-3 centuries and with the arrival of the extremist Almoravids during the 12th century, muslim Spain was not a good place for followers of other religions - when jews start fleeing into medieval christian kingdoms, situation must have been very desperate...
I'd say that most of the middle ages (say, from 1000 onwards), christians and muslims on average scale were pretty pari in terms of tolerance, both spheres with ups and downs.

	23-04-2005 15:35									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Exactly what I'll do. There was a problem that my g/f wanted a RC wedding (not because of faith reasons, rather because "it's supposed to be that way"), but I've already convinced her and her family that in case that we'll wed, we'll put on stage an individually planned atheist "ceremony". I.e. hijacking and altering elements from church ceremonies, having a pseudo-priest (I already have a friend of ours in mind) who asks us questions about being faithful and true and all kinds of brimborium.

Exactly what I think is needed. Ceremonies and celebrations without a religious background. After all I think it's important to celebrate and such stuff, but the religious background for me and for others just isn't appropriate anymore.

This is also where I am putting lots of hopes in the gay community, that they'll first find different and modern rites to celebrate typical stages in a human's life.
I bet many straight people could adopt that too and provide a common ground for straights and gays and the future for a peaceful living together (as stupid as this sounds, since we are all human beings anyway).

	23-04-2005 15:37									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III That's only partially true. The most tolerant time was the first 2-3 centuries and with the arrival of the extremist Almoravids during the 12th century, muslim Spain was not a good place for followers of other religions - when jews start fleeing into medieval christian kingdoms, situation must have been very desperate... I'd say that most of the middle ages (say, from 1000 onwards), christians and muslims on average scale were pretty pari in terms of tolerance, both spheres with ups and downs.

The Almoravids were an element 'external' to Spain though, and their influence was less pernicious and long lasting than Ferdinand and Isabella's, or Charles V* who asked his son to ensure that Protestantism and heresy be extirpated in the Spanish dominions- which of course precipitated Philip's clash with the Netherlands.

William of Orange had previously (physically) supported Charles V during the latter's abdication ceremony in the Low Countries.

Overall, the forces of the Reconquista were much less tolerant (despite the likes of Alfonso the Wise of Castile) than the various Muslim rulers- Spain's golden age of science and philosophical speculation began in the Muslim taifa states- and filtered through to Salamanca and then Western Europe.

The Spanish Christian tradition bequeathed us intolerance, Torquemada and autos da fe- and I don't think Cervantes, Lope de Vega and Zurbaran and Velasquez are adequate compensation.

(* If I recall correctly, one of Charles V's Spanish bishops at the Council of Trent ended his days in the Inquisition dungeons. How ironic...)

	23-04-2005 15:38									#48
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I first read the thread title as:

"Spain poised to be third country to legalize marijuana"

	23-04-2005 16:10									#49
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I was very pleased to hear this news - on its own merits and also as a nice big fat slap in the face to Ratzinger and the other conservatives who make my church a laughing stock. The timing could not have been better - here Pope Benedict - have a reality check.

	23-04-2005 17:03									#50
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If it's one thing Blair tends to be good at it is progressive policies like this although his slant towards catholicism has alarmed me...perhaps it is time we did get rid of him and replaced him with Brown...but it is about time gay marriage was legalised in this country (or preferably, the whole institution of marriage abolished, but parity will do for now )

	23-04-2005 20:11									#51
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As to Isabella and Ferdinand, the Ottoman Sultan Beyezid II is said to have quipped to a Spanish ambassador praising the wise King of Spain, "Who calls this king wise who enriches my kingdom at the expense of his own?"

	23-04-2005 20:20									#52
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom The Almoravids were an element 'external' to Spain though, and their influence was less pernicious and long lasting than Ferdinand and Isabella's, or Charles V* who asked his son to ensure that Protestantism and heresy be extirpated in the Spanish dominions- which of course precipitated Philip's clash with the Netherlands. William of Orange had previously (physically) supported Charles V during the latter's abdication ceremony in the Low Countries.

You could as easily claim that my dear fatherland exported the Hapsburgs as an "external element" to Spain too... (or blame the Swiss)
Sure, the Almoravids came from northern Africa, but the first, tolerant muslim rulers also came across the street of Gibraltar and were not as autochthonous as the basques. .
They ruled over muslim Spain for 3 centuries and are certainly part of Spain's muslim heritage.

Anyways, the "Catholic kings" and their Hapsburg successors are the reason why I limited my analysis to the Middle Ages.
And Philipp's policy in the Netherlands were especially stupid at any rate.

quote: Overall, the forces of the Reconquista were much less tolerant (despite the likes of Alfonso the Wise of Castile) than the various Muslim rulers- Spain's golden age of science and philosophical speculation began in the Muslim taifa states- and filtered through to Salamanca and then Western Europe.

Sure the muslims were generally spoken superior to European christians - civilization wise, and in terms of tolerance - until ~1200-1300 (only an idiot could claim something else) , but this climate changed, critical and free thought was more and more silenced, the attitude towards christians and jews also changed in many parts of the muslim world. While in the 9th/10th centuries, jews and christians could be found in important positions, they lost access to higher posts in the later period of the muslim rule.
And on both side, forgive the sarcasm, there was the occasional pogrome...

quote: The Spanish Christian tradition bequeathed us intolerance, Torquemada and autos da fe- and I don't think Cervantes, Lope de Vega and Zurbaran and Velasquez are adequate compensation.

Since generally the mudéjar architecture also counts as an outstanding heritage from the muslims (and it is great), gothic architecture should not be forgotten.
Also, Spanish scholasticism was a fertile philosophical trait, and don't forget that beside the inquisition and the cruelty that happened in the conquest of America, there was some radical critique from within the Catholic church against the abuses. After all, Las Casas won the judicial quarrel against Sepúlveda. The fact that material interests made the new laws absolute dead paper and the kings unwilling to enforce them does not mean that one can simply blame the christian tradition to have caused the mess because of its intolerance. - But I'm not only talking about Las Casas. These critics were not only a few isolated voices, but had a certain support. I had the opportunity to read reports from jesuit missionaries in Chile to the Viceroy and the king, railing against the abuses by the heirs of the conquistadors and secular clergy, stating clearly that in their opinion, those were responsible for the Mapuche uprising. They were heard, some law was passed, nothing or little happened, but there was Spanish christian opposition, sometimes stronger, sometimes less.

I'm not arguing that christianity was only hijacked by evil-doers, but to narrow it down to the inquisition and Torquemada, while at the same time, in a comparison with islam, discarding the Almoravids on the other side is distorting reality.

	23-04-2005 20:25									#53
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But Wernezuma, don't forget tha Almovorids didn't stay in power the whole time. By the time of the last century of Muslim rule, things had returned to "the good old days." The fall of Grenada was a disaster for Spainish Jewry.

	23-04-2005 22:31									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Gay marriage benefits society, too. So there.

What are the benefits of it?
And to be precise, I've ment procreation.

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Recognition that gay people are every bit as equal as straight people.

Gay people are equal. Straight people are bound by the same laws concerning gay or hetero marriage.
The problem is acceptation of equality between gay marriage and straight one, and they simply are not equal.

quote: Originally posted by molly bloom The Almoravids were an element 'external' to Spain

Just like earlier Muslim rulers

	23-04-2005 23:31									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson What are the benefits of it? And to be precise, I've ment procreation.

Dammit, I can't find my tech tree map, but IIRC The Marriage SP isn't a preq for building the Child unit.

Often it's the succesfull start of this unit that forces you to rushbuild that SP.

	24-04-2005 00:03									#56
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Anyways, gay couples can't have kids.

	24-04-2005 00:35									#57
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I assume that infertile people should not be allowed to marry then

	24-04-2005 00:40									#58
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Finland legalized homosexual marriages few years ago.

quote: Anyways, gay couples can't have kids.

Yes they can (and they will, I've seen many newspaper articles glorifying homosexual parenthood here).

Not with each other (I guess that's what you meant? What is it supposed to prove?), though.

	24-04-2005 00:57									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid I assume that infertile people should not be allowed to marry then

Infertile people are exception from a rule.
Gay couples can't have kids - that's a rule without exceptions.

quote: Originally posted by VJ Yes they can Not with each other (I guess that's what you meant? What is it supposed to prove?), though.

Adoption of kids by gay couples can only be allowed if being gay is no longer considered anything bad in the society. Otherwise, it's harmful to the child. And even then, it's an experiment on a living human being.

	24-04-2005 01:03									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson ... it's harmful to the child. And even then, it's an experiment on a living human being.

Isn't every child borne an experiment on a living human being ? Or do you suggest that all children are to be collected at special institutions and raised under exactly same conditions ?