10-05-2005 21:00									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious We do have the answer. You want a different one. You can't give the employees fair compensation while you pay the shareholders and creditors off. It doesn't add up. Is that what you want us to say?

No, I want y'all to come up with a solution where people don't get stiffed. Since y'all can't, that should tell you something about the long-term attractiveness of Communist theory.

	10-05-2005 21:15									#272
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT No, I want y'all to come up with a solution where people don't get stiffed. Since y'all can't, that should tell you something about the long-term attractiveness of Communist theory.

First, people aren't getting stiffed. Second, you just want us not to be communist. That doesn't make any sense.

	10-05-2005 21:52									#273
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Here's Toyota's results on the other hand. About $10 billion in net profits for fiscal year 2004, ending on March 31, 2005. They sold over 10,000 Prius hybrids in the US in April, so it doesn't surprise me that the Californians on Poly are seeing them around.

quote: Toyota's record year ends on low note Automaker targets 6% growth for cars sold; dividend hiked By MarketWatch Last Update: 11:17 AM ET May 10, 2005 TOKYO (MarketWatch) -- Toyota Motor Corp. on Tuesday posted a record 2005 profit and hiked its dividend, but in a rare speed bump for the automotive giant, raw material costs and currency exchange losses cut into fourth-quarter earnings. U.S.-listed shares of the world's second-largest automaker shed 54 cents to $73.56 in recent trading on the New York Stock Exchange. Toyota said its fiscal 2004 group net profit, reported after the close of trading on the Tokyo Stock Exchange, rose 0.8% to 1.17 trillion yen ($11 billion), or 355 yen a share, from 1.16 trillion yen, or 343 yen, a year earlier. Toyota reported that operating profit gained 0.3% to 1.67 trillion yen, on record revenue of 18.55 trillion yen, which was up 7.3%. But in the quarter ended March 31, Toyota's group net profit fell 17% from a year earlier to 290.7 billion yen, and its group operating profit fell 23% to 383.0 billion yen. The first three months of 2005 "saw the biggest profit fall in seven quarters as higher steel and plastics prices boosted costs," said KBC Financial analyst Jonathan Allum in a note to clients. On a more positive note, the company announced a dividend of 40 yen per share, up 15 yen from a year ago. The rise brought its fiscal year dividend to 65 yen per share, up 20 yen from last year. Toyota did not issue any group financial projections for the current year through March 2006. But on a parent basis, it said it expects to post net profit of 500 billion yen and pretax profit of 770 billion yen. "We hope to maintain a similar level of profit as fiscal year 2005 excluding foreign currency impact through improved sales efforts and cost reduction," said President Fujio Cho. Still thumping U.S. rivals The annual results further crystallize Toyota's rise to the top of the automotive heap just as General Motors Corp. (GM: news, chart, profile) and Ford Motor Co. (F: news, chart, profile) , its top U.S. competition, continue to buckle under the weight of slack demand and mounting costs. Toyota recently went so far as to say it would consider hiking prices in the U.S. to alleviate some pressure on domestic carmakers and would potentially share its hybrid technology, though it downplayed the likelihood of this happening. Last week, skyrocketing Prius hybrid sales highlighted a 21.3% surge in U.S. sales for April, to 210,466 vehicles. Toyota tripled its Prius sales in the month to 11,345 vehicles, on the way to its target of 300,000 hybrids a year. In a conference call following the report, Toyota pegged its long-range annual target at 1 million hybrid vehicles. Overall, the Toyota brand sold 23.7% more cars and trucks to reach a total of 184,402 units. The luxury Lexus division grew 6.6% to 26,064 vehicles, its best April on record. In Japan, Toyota's market share -- boosted by strong sales of compact cars and sedans like the Crown and Mark X -- rose to 44.5% in the 12-month period. Toyota said that it sold a total of 7.4 million vehicles worldwide in 2005 and that it expects to lift that total to 7.85 million by April 2006.

	10-05-2005 23:46									#274
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The commie way wouldn't work but the statist way has worked to turn around failing industrial concerns. Recently South Korea's nationalization of Daewoo should that if a government did want to take over a company to prevent its collapse then it can be done. South Korea opted to just keep paying all the suppliers and workers out of the federal treasury and to continue existing development projects, but not to add new ones, then sell it off at the earliest possible time.

France's experience with Renault saved that automaker from going under in the late 1940's when most Frenchmen were to broke to buy a new car. The state invested heavily in developing new models and eventually did an intial public offering. In the 1970's the company again got into trouble, was renationalized & recapitalized again by the state, then slowly sold off to small investers in the Paris Stock Exchange. The result is the world's 5th largest company (Well Renault owns 50% of Nissan and Nissan owns something like 15% of Renault but they function as the same company and even have the same CEO).

The point is nationalizations can work but should be a last resort in order to prevent key industries from going under. The UK should have done that to BL in the 1980's but instead Thatcher let the industry go into a death spiral which finally played its last tune earlier this year.

	11-05-2005 02:24									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious First, people aren't getting stiffed. Second, you just want us not to be communist. That doesn't make any sense.

Let me quote you:

quote: You can't give the employees fair compensation while you pay the shareholders and creditors off.

I'm not concerned with the shareholders - after all, they accept the risk that their investment might lose it all.

But creditors aren't just banking institutions, they also include suppliers, consultants, and other outside people and institutions necessary for the building and selling of cars (you don't think that GM has to pay for everything before they receive it do you? If so, somebody needs to introduce you to the concept of the "invoice.")

So you're arguing that in order to pay employees a "fair" wage, you're gonna have to stiff the company that makes the radios, the company that builds nuts and bolts, the company that supplies the upholstery, and etc and etc. What about their employees, who are now out of a job because you decided to stiff them?

	11-05-2005 02:28									#276
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Let me quote you: quote: You can't give the employees fair compensation while you pay the shareholders and creditors off. I'm not concerned with the shareholders - after all, they accept the risk that their investment might lose it all. But creditors aren't just banking institutions, they also include suppliers, consultants, and other outside people and institutions necessary for the building and selling of cars (you don't think that GM has to pay for everything before they receive it do you? If so, somebody needs to introduce you to the concept of the "invoice.") So you're arguing that in order to pay employees a "fair" wage, you're gonna have to stiff the company that makes the radios, the company that builds nuts and bolts, the company that supplies the upholstery, and etc and etc. What about their employees, who are now out of a job because you decided to stiff them?

I didn't mean the suppliers. Current liabilities are no big deal. And I'm not talking about avoiding the pension obligations either.

	11-05-2005 02:28									#277
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quote: The point is nationalizations can work but should be a last resort in order to prevent key industries from going under. The UK should have done that to BL in the 1980's but instead Thatcher let the industry go into a death spiral which finally played its last tune earlier this year.

Even so, they didn't stiff their suppliers, which is how Kid would solve the GM problem.

	11-05-2005 02:32									#278
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quote: I didn't mean the suppliers.

Then you need to be more careful in how you choose your words.

	11-05-2005 09:25									#279
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Are you kidding? That was the best money that HP ever spent.

touche

	11-05-2005 09:37									#280
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Here's an excerpt from an FT article about rumors swirling...

quote: Treasuries gain in uneasy trade By Jennifer Hughes in New York, Joanna Chung in London and,David Turner in Tokyo Published: May 11 2005 03:00 | Last updated: May 11 2005 03:00 US Treasury prices rose yesterday, pushing yields lower, as investors were forced to cover short positions on general market unease following rumours about hedge fund troubles in the aftermath of General Motors' credit downgrade. The problems were thought to centre around a derivatives position hit hard by the one-two blow of billionaire investor Kirk Kerkorian's investment in the struggling carmaker and the unexpected timing of Standard & Poor's downgrade of GM to junk the next day. Unexpectedly strong demand for the first leg of the Treasury's three big quarterly refunding sales helped lift prices further and by late trade in New York, the yield on the benchmark 10-year Treasury was 6.4 basis points lower at 4.2224 per cent, while the two-year bond yield dipped 7bp to 3.691 per cent. The Treasury sold $22bn in three-year paper at a high yield of 3.821 per cent - the highest since May 2003 - attracting bids worth 2.38 times the amount on offer. Sales of $15bn in five-year paper and $14bn in 10-year notes are scheduled for today and tomorrow, respectively. Elsewhere, the same market rumours together with investors' positioning in the markets and weakened equities conspired to push eurozone government bond yields to historic lows. As prices surged, bond yields fell to 3.34 per cent before rising again to 3.364 per cent. "Market participants who are covering their short positions are buying bonds and pushing prices higher," said Wee Khoon Chong, European rates strategist at RBS Financial Markets.

	11-05-2005 10:10									#281
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Here's Toyota's results on the other hand. About $10 billion in net profits for fiscal year 2004, ending on March 31, 2005. They sold over 10,000 Prius hybrids in the US in April, so it doesn't surprise me that the Californians on Poly are seeing them around.

I think Toyota is one of the best run companies in the world. Their product is solid. Every corner of a Toyota is quality. Simple, it just works.

About 5 years ago I said to myself, "Toyotas are SO reliable, but their styling is so BORING.

Then I see Toyota sporting up their Corollas. I saw a Corolla S for the first time and had no idea it was a Toyota. Then the Scion came out. Dorky at first I thought. But I came to like it. The inside is roomy and comfortable. The new Scion Coupe rivals the Civic, they are also popping up all over the place.

Toyota.


On the other hand, all of us have looked at GM for the past 20 years, and have said, "they really need to do A, B, C, D, and E to improve." Yet GM has NEVER responded.

	11-05-2005 10:18									#282
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youre right, toyota has no style, they copy everyone elses and make it cheaper.

	11-05-2005 10:19									#283
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And more reliable too.

	11-05-2005 12:12									#284
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Scion is a loser. In 10 years it will be thought of as another Merkur or Edsel.

Toyota should concentrate on building their core brand instead of branching off into brands that mean nothing to anyone.

	11-05-2005 12:49									#285
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more reliable? aaaaaahhhh i dont know about that. but i do know that its much cheaper to fix when something does go wrong (all the parts are made from plastic, even the pistons. nah jk )

	11-05-2005 13:09									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia more reliable? aaaaaahhhh i dont know about that. but i do know that its much cheaper to fix when something does go wrong (all the parts are made from plastic, even the pistons. nah jk )

Uhhh, guys, it is WAY common knowledge that Toyota makes the most reliable cars in the world. I mean that is just a common fact. They not only are the most reliable, they pretty much PWN the competition.

quote: According to April 05 Consumer Reports of the US. Toyota tops other automakers in 2005 New-Car Reliabilty: 1. Scion, 2. Lexus, 3. Toyota, 4 Subaru, 5 Honda, 6. Acura, 7 Mitsubishi, 8 Infiniti, 9 Hyundai, 10. Suzuki.

Notice that Scion is the most reliable brand. Sorry Oerdin. And by the way I see Scions EVERYWHERE. Their new coupe is selling like crazy, and is a good looking car for a good price.

http://www.badders.com/forum/showthread.html?t=1338

	11-05-2005 16:45									#287
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I hardly see them at all. The kids are shifting out of Civics and into Mitsubishis & Subarus.

	11-05-2005 20:23									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Uhhh, guys, it is WAY common knowledge that Toyota makes the most reliable cars in the world. I mean that is just a common fact. They not only are the most reliable, they pretty much PWN the competition. http://www.badders.com/forum/showthread.html?t=1338

Really? Honda's are the most reliable cars that I have ever encounter. I have had several, and I know.

	11-05-2005 20:27									#289
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I think most Americans agree that less expensive, better looking, more reliable and more fuel efficient is a winning formula. GM has had 30+ years to meet the Japanese competition, and failed.

I don't care if GM is an American company. It needs wholly new management from top to bottom. It either has to go completely out of business, or be bought by a Japanese company out of bankruptcy.

	11-05-2005 22:57									#290
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"United Airlines, which is operating in bankruptcy protection, received court permission yesterday to terminate its four employee pension plans, setting off the largest pension default in the three decades that the government has guaranteed pensions.

The ruling by Judge Eugene R. Wedoff of Federal Bankruptcy Court came after a lengthy hearing in a crowded Chicago courtroom, near where United is based.

Despite pleas by union lawyers, Judge Wedoff sided with United, which had insisted that it could not emerge from bankruptcy protection with its pension plans in place.

The ruling releases United, a unit of the UAL Corporation, from $3.2 billion in pension obligations over the next five years. The federal agency that guarantees pensions, the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, will assume responsibility for the plans, which cover about 134,000 people.

Some retirees could see sharply lower pension payments as a result; others will see little change in benefits, depending on a variety of factors. Some retirees at US Airways, which has terminated its plans, have seen benefits drop by as much as 50 percent."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/11/b...agewanted=print

	11-05-2005 22:58									#291
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Can GM declare bankruptcy now?

	11-05-2005 22:59									#292
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Like I said, I hve it on good authority that something similar is in the works for GM.

	11-05-2005 23:01									#293
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What sort of authority?

	11-05-2005 23:38									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Scion is a loser. In 10 years it will be thought of as another Merkur or Edsel. Toyota should concentrate on building their core brand instead of branching off into brands that mean nothing to anyone.

No. The're doing the right thing. When you have brand name recognition you need to use it.

	11-05-2005 23:45									#295
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PBGC

	12-05-2005 00:15									#296
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Have pension liabilities ever been transferred to the PBGC without bankruptcy?

	12-05-2005 00:27									#297
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quote: It either has to go completely out of business, or be bought by a Japanese company out of bankruptcy.

I disagree with both sentiments. Despite their problems, GM represents a substantial amount of manufacturing capacity here in the US, something I would never like to see fall into the hands of a foreign company.

	12-05-2005 00:29									#298
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GM is a destroyer of vast amounts of value. I don't have any problem with them going out of business. Manufacturing capacity is a vastly overrated metric anyway.

	12-05-2005 00:31									#299
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It isn't in wartime.

	12-05-2005 00:35									#300
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We're at war right now and manufacturing as a percentage of our economy is plummeting.