23-04-2005 13:07									#1
	Proper credits for graphics. Suffering from ads?

I have noticed a bit of a worrying trend.

One that was developing even before the crashing of the original forum.

It concerns the proper credit when posting units.
I think when posting a series of units by say, Case,
Darthveda, fairline or ANZAC the posters should say so.

If not it implies that you have lain claim to the units,
which I think is not a very good vibe to be putting across.

I think also that changing three pixels and then pasting
your sig onto a unit is pushing the boundaries a bit.

There was much talk of bad habits forming in Harry's
thread before the big crash, and now we have a new
start, it would be good to institute good standards again!

Now I personally care not about 'me' getting credit,
as I am a mere tweaker and not a creator.
But when using a graphic I always make it clear where the source is derived from.
That is with a sig, and announcing who it belongs to when posting.

I think we should all be doing likewise.

Opinions if you have them.

	23-04-2005 13:48									#2
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I've lately been using a reduced version of my sig when a do tweaks to someone elses unit, exept for when i do a full retexturing, i'm also getting ready to repost a lot of the units that i have made, worked on or tweaked, and i'll use 2 different sigs for all those units, my main one, which means that i did major work on it, and my reduced one which means that i have done minor to moderate work on it. Now if i can remember to do that to all the units i work on,
What do you think of this method?

	23-04-2005 13:53									#3
	Remove this text

here is an example,
the a7 i tweaked into an f-8 has my reduced sig,
and the mig-23 that i shredded and turned into an avro arrow has my full sig
of course this only works if you have a slightly larger sig like mine, the 2 letter sigs don't really get any smaller,

Attachment: example1.gif
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	23-04-2005 14:10									#4
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It is not really aim at anyone in particular, Erika -

It is just about the style of posting.

For example, when posting the image above,
You could say:

"This is a F-8 and MiG-23, made by Tanelorn and some edits by me."

That is the kind of thing that I see is missing from many posts these days.

It is how units are being posted, not just the sigs.

.

	23-04-2005 14:31									#5
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I agree, Curt. Broken Erika has inadvertantly provided a perfect example: deleting a few pixels from the trailing edge of the wings on Tanelorn's A7 does not justify 'ownership' of the graphic. Her Avro Arrow on the other hand is a substantial mod and fully justifies her signature.

I think it's great that people mod existing units to create new ones. Go ahead and post 'em. But please don't post mildly tweaked versions, alongside untouched originals. Let's have some compilations by BeBro, Nemo, Erwan, AroSch, Hardjoy and Alex to kick things off in the new threads, with full recognition by the poster that they are not the artist. I think Leo has already started this.

Some other thoughts: wait until you have a batch of new or modded units and post them in one compilation. One of the problems with the old threads was endless single unit posts. Don't spam.

	23-04-2005 15:34									#6
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Okay guys, I agree to all above. Now I have some questions.
Attached is a file with units (right row) that I've modded from other units (the two left rows). Blue field is where my sig is supposed to be, IF you think it should be there at all. Please reply with your thoughts. This is merely a try for me to understand what you all think, and hopefully it'll help others too.


Row #1: Two of favoured flight's goblins I modded into another goblin. Should I put my sig on it?

Row #2: I took the liberty of modding the two units, made by tanelorn/favoured flight, modding it so that the big orc rides the wolf instead of the other creature. Should I put my sig on it?

Row #3: Modded the faoured flight's easterling and archer into and easterling archer (sounds weird, but you get the idea in the pic). Should I put my sig on it?

Row #4: Using Fairline's/Bebro's chariot, resizing favoured flight's easterling and put it on there to be an easterling wainrider. Same question here of course.


Yes, the units are mods I've made for a scen, that still hasn't been finished yet.

Attachment: mods.gif
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	23-04-2005 16:16									#7
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One of observation Ive made at Apolyton is that you make an aweful lot of units, however comparitivly few are on request or end up in scenarios.

	23-04-2005 18:42									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Joeb Wan Kenobi One of observation Ive made at Apolyton is that you make an aweful lot of units, however comparitivly few are on request or end up in scenarios.

So? This is a fact that many have to live with, including myself when I first got here. I used to spam the graphic threads like there was no tomorrow, and felt unhappy when seemingly no one responded.

The thing is that it's a hell lot easier to spew out requests than it is to make a unit. Being normal people, and thus under the constraints of such, it's rather difficult to respond to everybody's requests, as much as we would like to. Another reason is that some units are simply too complex for the ones who do have time, and as a result are bypassed.

I learnt two things from this experience- one is that if you want to request a unit then you have to be prepared to be patient as there usually is a waiting list on each thread. The second is that it is in the end better to learn some rudimentary graphic skills and make your own units than to wait till the end of eternity for them to be finished.

	23-04-2005 22:23									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Joeb Wan Kenobi One of observation Ive made at Apolyton is that you make an aweful lot of units, however comparitivly few are on request or end up in scenarios.

Building a killer library of units has never been a bad thing.

It means future scen makers will have more choices.

The more the better, and if they are in compilations (Typhoon has some cracking ones) this is what the community needs.

.

	24-04-2005 02:16									#10
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Building a killer library of units has never been a bad thing. It means future scen makers will have more choices. The more the better, and if they are in compilations (Typhoon has some cracking ones) this is what the community needs. .

But if people are going to make random unit graphics then they should be organized better. Take for example this Roboteck scenario Im doing graphics for at the minute. A few weeks ago I did some units for it and then a few weeks later Atherdain manages to find some other versions of them. If the units had been easier to find I could have done some of the other units that were needed. Im not blaming anyone Im just saying that unit threads should be kept pure and collections better organised. Similar to what they have at CDG.

	24-04-2005 02:23									#11
	Remove this text

The threads can be better policed and compiled, true.

But even more so, there is a need to instill a sense of good
posting habits in the community. Only posting relevant stuff,
and in the proper place...

But I think we should not prevent creators from providing choice.
In my experience, Typhoon (the person you complained about)
has always been very precise in his posting and crediting of units.

.

	24-04-2005 02:32									#12
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling The threads can be better policed and compiled, true. But even more so, there is a need to instill a sense of good posting habits in the community. Only posting relevant stuff, and in the proper place... But I think we should not prevent creators from providing choice. In my experience, Typhoon (the person you complained about) has always been very precise in his posting and crediting of units. .

I wasnt complaing about Typhoon in particular I think the sheets he does are one of the best ways to find the spesific units you need. What Id like is an easy way to find the exact units you need without having to download mountains of units onto your hardrive and then organize them yourself.

	24-04-2005 02:55									#13
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quote: One of observation Ive made at Apolyton is that you make an aweful lot of units, however comparitivly few are on request or end up in scenarios.

Like Curt said, it's good to have a library of units. I, for one, am often inspired to create a scenario based on some cracking unit in the graphics threads that has rarely/never been used before. Typhoon's graphics are a prime example of this and are sadly criminally underused. His Malaysia/Singapore units made me want to create a scenario depicting a state of war between the two countries. I don't have time unfortuntately, but when I see a great unit I see a potentially great scenario.

	24-04-2005 04:28									#14
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Having two separate threads for graphic requests and discussion is a good idea IMO, leaving the main threads for pure graphics posting without the clutter of +1s, just like a binaries newsgroup.

Actually, because I've been going on in other threads about the "clutter" aspect I haven't felt able to post my appreciation for what has been shared. Great work by all, as usual.

	24-04-2005 14:04									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Joeb Wan Kenobi I wasnt complaing about Typhoon in particular I think the sheets he does are one of the best ways to find the spesific units you need. What Id like is an easy way to find the exact units you need without having to download mountains of units onto your hardrive and then organize them yourself.

Agreed.

	24-04-2005 14:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Joeb Wan Kenobi What Id like is an easy way to find the exact units you need without having to download mountains of units onto your hardrive and then organize them yourself.

Well this is what typhoon and I have been saying (in the welcome back thread) about creating an index where you can simply link to the thread or the image attachment, so it wouldn't matter what order the units were posted in or however many other posts were between units. But there is only a need for this when single unit images are posted rather than compilations.

	24-04-2005 15:08									#17
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Right thanks. I must have missed that.

	24-04-2005 21:29									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Panda Well this is what typhoon and I have been saying (in the welcome back thread) about creating an index where you can simply link to the thread or the image attachment, so it wouldn't matter what order the units were posted in or however many other posts were between units. But there is only a need for this when single unit images are posted rather than compilations.

This is a good idea. There is an ideal model in the form, I think, of the CFC civ3 units list. I may be wrong here, and I'll try to find a link. Any road up, somebody has taken the trouble of categorising civ3 units by era and type, and linking to the appropriate page with the image file.

	24-04-2005 22:59									#19
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Hmm...yes I had seen that (and even d'loaded a couple) as BeBro was working on Civ3 units and I thought I'd take a look.

	25-04-2005 00:41									#20
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I'm not an industrialized unit maker, but I've made quite a few units from scratch myself, and I've modified quite a few as well. So I understand this "problem" you raise curt. I've always been careful with what units to add signatures to and which not. If I only change a couple of pixels and some texturing I don't add my signature to the unit. There has to be some significant change for me to add my sig.

I realize however that I've maybe had alittle too big a signature. It's no good when my signature overshadows the original author, usually Fairline. For my own units I think I am entitled to have it as big as I want, but from now on if I ever start working from an already existing unit, I will only add a single "E" like this:

The "my own unit" onei spretty clear. The modified one is modified heavily from Gareth's gangsters. The one I decided not to add sig to was one where I cut and pasted some body parts from the two units into each other. In the process I had to do some touches with the brush to colour and smoothen things out, also add grey hair and stuff, but I didn't feel it was significant enough to justify any sigs.

Ok, back to the drawing board!

Attachment: eivind_units.png
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