23-04-2005 20:45									#1
	Should United Workers Strike the Company Out of Existence? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news...s-united23.html

United cleared to dump its pension plans

April 23, 2005

BY MARY WISNIEWSKI Business Reporter
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In a big win for United Airlines and a huge setback for its labor unions, Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. reached a settlement with the bankrupt carrier to terminate the company's employee pension plans.

	23-04-2005 21:03									#2
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It's f**king disgusting. The welfare of it's employees should be taken care of separate from corporate interests...I mean, this is people's future on the line here!

	23-04-2005 21:16									#3
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Don't you guys have a publicly paid retirement system that gives a decent standard of living?

	23-04-2005 21:21									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Don't you guys have a publicly paid retirement system that gives a minimal standard of living?

I corrected your statement for you.

	23-04-2005 21:25									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison It's f**king disgusting. The welfare of it's employees should be taken care of separate from corporate interests...I mean, this is people's future on the line here!

Damn straight it's people's future.

Corporate interests like paying those creditors (and indirectly, their employees) whose products and services kept United flying (and it's employees employed) for years? So United's employees should **** the employees of it's creditors?

Maybe if United's employees had allowed the labor costs imposed by their unions to be competitive with other carriers, they would have been able to keep operating and paying their bills in the first place.

	23-04-2005 21:28									#6
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Maybe if United's employees had allowed the labor costs imposed by their unions to be competitive with other carriers, they would have been able to keep operating and paying their bills.

That's not what killed the airline. United was murdered by management, who spun off every profitable part of the airline. the parent corp of UAL is still profitable. The unions were stupid and allowed themselves to have majority ownership in UAL without having control of the board. They were robbed with eyes wide open.

	23-04-2005 22:48									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison It's f**king disgusting. The welfare of it's employees should be taken care of separate from corporate interests...I mean, this is people's future on the line here!

Yes, those poor pilots, their 5-figure salaries will no longer be able to keep them afloat!

	23-04-2005 23:54									#8
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Not every employee is a pilot.

	24-04-2005 00:31									#9
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They just stuck the US taxpayer with a bill for their excesses. We should be hanging them all high in the public square.

	24-04-2005 00:47									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Yes, those poor pilots, their 5-figure salaries will no longer be able to keep them afloat!

Dudemanjack has it right, not all employees are pilots...also it is dishonest to renege on something they promised contractually...

	24-04-2005 00:53									#11
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All of the unions have been squeezing the company dry, be it pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, etc. They have directly contributed to the plight of the entire company in its most dire day. What about the other employees not in a union? If the entire company folds what happens to them?

	24-04-2005 00:55									#12
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yes

They don't deserve to operate.

In other news Southwest airlines continues to pull good profits.

It's called good management- and United doesn't have it.

	24-04-2005 03:27									#13
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Yeah.

	24-04-2005 03:38									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Yes, those poor pilots, their 5-figure salaries will no longer be able to keep them afloat!

I think you meant 6 figures. Even I make 5 figures.

	24-04-2005 03:43									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Trip All of the unions have been squeezing the company dry, be it pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, etc.

Yeah, the flight attendents have it so ****ing good that they have to have roommates to afford their aparemtns in the cheap section of town, and the people who work at the counters are just rolling in dough. Stop talkin' out your ass. It was management that bled UAL dry.

	24-04-2005 04:29									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I think you meant 6 figures. Even I make 5 figures.

Guess I haven't learned to count as well as I thought yet.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, the flight attendents have it so ****ing good that they have to have roommates to afford their aparemtns in the cheap section of town, and the people who work at the counters are just rolling in dough. Stop talkin' out your ass. It was management that bled UAL dry.

Push on your wall too hard trying to get more space and everyone's roof will fall.

I never said they were to blame for the original situation.

	24-04-2005 05:14									#17
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Good for them. I hope they bring that corrupt company down. If they're gonna **** the workers over, the least the workers can do is **** 'em back.

	24-04-2005 08:28									#18
	Re: Should United Workers Strike the Company Out of Existence? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I don't see why not. Perhaps that way Delta (or some other carrier) can survive.

	24-04-2005 08:32									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

yeah, and let the UA workers queue for jobs there.

It's not in the best interests of any union to drive their own members out of work.

	24-04-2005 08:34									#20
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Man, all my US Air FF miles...

	24-04-2005 08:43									#21
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Looking at an article posted on Yahoo Finance, I see the following quote:

quote: A settlement of that dispute would speed transferal of the four plans to the government pension agency -- reducing some benefits to employees from the original plans, which are underfunded by $9.8 billion. But Judge Eugene Wedoff, who had not yet seen details of the agreement Friday, must first approve it.

What United is trying to do is dump the pension responsibities onto the government (at least $6 billion of them) and the government is trying to fight it. And United just won.

So yeah, strike and sink it. **** 'em all.

	24-04-2005 17:29									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DanS They just stuck the US taxpayer with a bill for their excesses. We should be hanging them all high in the public square.

Why? Companies do it all the time as to corporate execs, politicians, and just about everyone else. Sure, it sucks but your indignant outrage sounds hollow in my ears when so much of the same activity is ignored yet you get made about this one case.

	24-04-2005 17:37									#23
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Maybe if United's employees had allowed the labor costs imposed by their unions to be competitive with other carriers, they would have been able to keep operating and paying their bills in the first place.

United is actually one of the lower cost of the traditional style airlines. Delta is much more expensive on a per flight bases and United has benifeted from at least two bankruptcies in the last 20 years. The problem her is the company has bad management and it is being forced to compete against new low cost airlines which have no pensions to pay, use a different business model (point to point instead of hub and spoke, and yes have a lower pay scale and fewer workers per plane. One of those problems the union has contributed to and the rest really are squarely management's fault.

I don't have a problem with united going under because airlines attract lots of new start ups. I do have a problem with employees being blamed for the fallure when clearly they are the lesser problem here and I do have a problem that executives are going to make millions while retirees will lose their pensions. The management always blames their personal failures upon everything and everyone but themselves then management gives themselves a golden parachute while workers get screwed.

	24-04-2005 17:42									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Yes, those poor pilots, their 5-figure salaries will no longer be able to keep them afloat!

You average Jet has two pilots. To service that jet there's typically something like 4-6 maintance people, a half dozen baggage handlers, 2-4 stewrdesses, 2-5 ticket agents, and god only knows how many managers, accounts, advertising staff etc... That means there is on pilot for every 30-15 other workers. Do you think a ticket agent or a baggage handler get paid a six figure salary? I'm willing to be the middle and upper management of United is bloated with tons more people then they need and that, as ussual, they get huge pay checks many times larger then any pilot much less a baggagehandler.

	25-04-2005 01:57									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Dudemanjack has it right, not all employees are pilots...also it is dishonest to renege on something they promised contractually...

You mean, like to pay their debts to their suppliers, etc?

	25-04-2005 02:00									#26
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Looking at an article posted on Yahoo Finance, I see the following quote: quote: A settlement of that dispute would speed transferal of the four plans to the government pension agency -- reducing some benefits to employees from the original plans, which are underfunded by $9.8 billion. But Judge Eugene Wedoff, who had not yet seen details of the agreement Friday, must first approve it. What United is trying to do is dump the pension responsibities onto the government (at least $6 billion of them) and the government is trying to fight it. And United just won. So yeah, strike and sink it. **** 'em all.

So what, this is the government that pisses 1.2 billion a day in funny money deficit spending down the toilet... What's another 5 days worth of deficit?

	25-04-2005 02:02									#27
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One of the things the judge has done is force a retroactive paycut on the employees. A lot of the people who work for the airline don't make squat, because they take lower pay for the free airfare. Then to hit them with a retroactive pay cut.

	25-04-2005 02:02									#28
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, the flight attendents have it so ****ing good that they have to have roommates to afford their aparemtns in the cheap section of town, and the people who work at the counters are just rolling in dough. Stop talkin' out your ass. It was management that bled UAL dry.

I've known several flight attendants, who have it quite well, thank you, in their owned condos in one of the nice sections of town.

Not everybody is one of the oppressed masses.

	25-04-2005 02:03									#29
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara One of the things the judge has done is force a retroactive paycut on the employees. A lot of the people who work for the airline don't make squat, because they take lower pay for the free airfare. Then to hit them with a retroactive pay cut.

If they don't make squat, how do they afford to stay and eat, etc., wherever they fly for free?

	25-04-2005 03:46									#30
	Got spare money?

Well, the ones I know stay five or six to a hotel room.