30-04-2005 13:16									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski What is the real reaon we went into war with iraq.... Bush wante to make history nd thought he was saving the world please im not laughing. The world needs not the likes of an anus like gw bush.... However something needed tobe done in iraq that should have been handled in that country.

I normally don't get involved in these debates since everyone as a rule excludes our involvement ('our' = Australia).

I believe the reason was to send a message to the Middle East. No so much to the fundamentalists but rather to the governments. The message being that if they aren't going to clean up their act, the west will do it for them. I could be wrong though.

What I am disgusted with was outlined by Lawrence of Arabia which can be distilled down to "If you have no economic value, we don't care what you do.".

	30-04-2005 18:42									#122
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How much are you worth Qilue? Aahh nevermind I'll just put you on ignore on general principles instead.

	30-04-2005 18:54									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Qilue I normally don't get involved in these debates since everyone as a rule excludes our involvement ('our' = Australia). I believe the reason was to send a message to the Middle East. No so much to the fundamentalists but rather to the governments. The message being that if they aren't going to clean up their act, the west will do it for them. I could be wrong though. What I am disgusted with was outlined by Lawrence of Arabia which can be distilled down to "If you have no economic value, we don't care what you do.".

To put fear into the people of the Middle East with death and torment. Also known as terrorism...quite ironic really isn't it?

	30-04-2005 20:29									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison To put fear into the people of the Middle East with death and torment. Also known as terrorism...quite ironic really isn't it?

I think the irony is that you read what you want to see instead of what is actually written.

	30-04-2005 22:14									#125
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Agathon, it is refreshing for someone from the anti-war camp to actually declare, in writing, what they believe the "real" reason is for the Iraq war:

American Imperialism.

All else was pretext.

WMDs were not the real reason.

Saddam's tryanny was not the real reason.

Israel was not the real reason.

American strategic interests in power projection into a vital region was the real reason.

Which, of course, must be opposed by all good enemies of the United States.

And, who, pray tell, are enemies of the United States?

Well, commies certainly are, for one.

	30-04-2005 22:32									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon (3) The whole thing is an attempt to extend US power into central Asia and provide military dominance over the world's most economically important resource. Why? Because China is on course to outpace the US and the Bush administration has made it a national policy that the US should be militarily dominant until the end of time (they've said this ? join the dots, dude).

You could have just said this at the begining and I would have known that the entire post wasn't worth reading.

	30-04-2005 22:38									#127
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quote: You could have just said this at the begining and I would have known that the entire post wasn't worth reading.

I didn't know you could read.

But I can't see what the problem is: Bush's advisers have made it plain in public declarations and in policy that this is their aim. Do you deny that they've said this?

And calling it imperialism is a bit misleading, as is ascribing to them wholly evil motives. Hubris is probably a better description.

Frankly, at least this makes some sort of sense, whereas the other "motives" (oil greed, etc.) do not.

	30-04-2005 22:43									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But I can't see what the problem is:

It flies in the face of logic if that were the reason.

	30-04-2005 22:45									#129
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quote: It flies in the face of logic if that were the reason.

Hardly. It's about the only reason that makes any sense at all, given that the people responsible for the policy have been saying the same for up to 12-13 years now.

All the other reasons involve obvious absurdities (like Saddam being in league with the Islamists).

	30-04-2005 22:47									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: You could have just said this at the begining and I would have known that the entire post wasn't worth reading. I didn't know you could read. But I can't see what the problem is: Bush's advisers have made it plain in public declarations and in policy that this is their aim. Do you deny that they've said this? And calling it imperialism is a bit misleading, as is ascribing to them wholly evil motives. Hubris is probably a better description. Frankly, at least this makes some sort of sense, whereas the other "motives" (oil greed, etc.) do not.

Well, Agathon, most of the left calls it American Imperialism precisely to inspire hatred in people who oppose all forms of imperialiam. If they called it "spreading democracy" or some new coined term for that concept, most of the world would join with America, and not oppose it.

	30-04-2005 22:52									#131
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quote: If they called it "spreading democracy" or some new coined term for that concept, most of the world would join with America, and not oppose it.

Spreading manure is more like it.

	30-04-2005 22:54									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Hardly.

The case you lay out makes absolutely no sense for the realist perspective in which you attempt to cast it. If Bush were the uber-realist you seem to think he is, we wouldn't be in Iraq.

	30-04-2005 22:55									#133
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quote: The case you lay out makes absolutely no sense for the realist perspective in which you attempt to cast it. If Bush were the uber-realist you seem to think he is, we wouldn't be in Iraq.

If he and his cohorts weren't certifiable idiots, you wouldn't be in Iraq.

	30-04-2005 22:58									#134
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Oh and this "realist" vs. "anti-realist" thing is a load of hooey invented by people with nothing better to do.

	30-04-2005 23:00									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: The case you lay out makes absolutely no sense for the realist perspective in which you attempt to cast it. If Bush were the uber-realist you seem to think he is, we wouldn't be in Iraq. If he and his cohorts weren't certifiable idiots, you wouldn't be in Iraq.

It's because of such utterly stupid comments, that it is very difficult to take anything you state seriously.

	30-04-2005 23:03									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: If they called it "spreading democracy" or some new coined term for that concept, most of the world would join with America, and not oppose it. Spreading manure is more like it.

Spreading civilization is more like it.

But you are right that Bush and the Neo-Cons have long been arguing that spreading democracy is what our foreign policy is about. The Iraq war had its pretexts. But the larger goal is the spread of freedom and democracy worldwide.

	30-04-2005 23:15									#137
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quote: It's because of such utterly stupid comments, that it is very difficult to take anything you state seriously.

As if I care what you think. If you believe their crap, you're as daft as they are.

These are the fools who thought that the Iraqi people would be lining the streets to cheer for them, and who planned a triumphant visit to Baghdad for Shrub during the handover that had to be cancelled because of the insurgency.

It's not like this wasn't apparent before the whole thing started. But hey, it's not like these guys ever bothered listening to anyone.

quote: But you are right that Bush and the Neo-Cons have long been arguing that spreading democracy is what our foreign policy is about. The Iraq war had its pretexts. But the larger goal is the spread of freedom and democracy worldwide.

Even if they believe this, it's still insane. Democracy doesn't arise at the barrel of a gun, except under certain rare circumstances.

Besides, anyone that imputes selflessness to foreign policy is usually being naive.

	30-04-2005 23:25									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: But you are right that Bush and the Neo-Cons have long been arguing that spreading democracy is what our foreign policy is about. The Iraq war had its pretexts. But the larger goal is the spread of freedom and democracy worldwide. Even if they believe this, it's still insane. Democracy doesn't arise at the barrel of a gun, except under certain rare circumstances. Besides, anyone that imputes selflessness to foreign policy is usually being naive.

One does not impose democracy with a gun. This is what commies do when they impose communism.

Let me give you an analogy. Suppose a man is holding a gun on a helpless woman and is forcing her into a sex act. Along comes a policeman. He arrests the man and frees the woman. She marries the cop and has consensual sex with him.

Now, which if the two is more like communism and which is more like democracy? Next, is arresting the man imposing marriage on the woman?

	30-04-2005 23:52									#139
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quote: One does not impose democracy with a gun. This is what commies do when they impose communism. Let me give you an analogy. Suppose a man is holding a gun on a helpless woman and is forcing her into a sex act. Along comes a policeman. He arrests the man and frees the woman. She marries the cop and has consensual sex with him. Now, which if the two is more like communism and which is more like democracy? Next, is arresting the man imposing marriage on the woman?

WTH does this have to do with the topic at hand?

	30-04-2005 23:54									#140
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Agathon, you contended that American's policy was to impose democracy with a gun, by force. I gave you the analogy only to show you just how ludicrous your statement was. One does not impose democracy. One ends tryanny.

	30-04-2005 23:59									#141
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What if the arresting man is actually one of those strippers dressed as cops???

	01-05-2005 00:02									#142
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quote: Agathon, you contended that American's policy was to impose democracy with a gun, by force.

I claimed that the stated purpose of the policy was to impose "democracy" (or a particular version of it). That doesn't mean I believe that the actual reasons for the policy aren't more mundane, although it is possible that they really do believe in what they are doing.

My claim is that even if their aims are solely noble, they are simply silly. Democracy is hard to impose by force on people, and the United States is the wrong country to do it. It is simply not viewed as legitimate, and it lacks the staying power to do more than a half assed job.

More to the point, Bush's little adventures and policy statements are ****ing up the prospects for an international order based on law, rather than force. I don't care what people say: there is no realistic alternative to the UN or some UN like agency. Certainly, the US trying to bully its rivals will just lead to the formation of counter blocs and a return to the state of nature.

quote: One does not impose democracy. One ends tryanny.

And how many times has this been said by those imposing a new tyranny?

Your analogy doesn't work – in this case the woman would be being saved by a man who'd stood by watching as she was raped the first time and cheered on the rapist - and then had a go himself.

	01-05-2005 00:02									#143
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Ted, you got a point. This is how Stalin took over Eastern Europe in the name of liberation. Bait and switch.

	01-05-2005 00:03									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: It's because of such utterly stupid comments, that it is very difficult to take anything you state seriously. As if I care what you think. If you believe their crap, you're as daft as they are.

Nice and intelligent argumentation - smear the person instead arguing aginst his/her opinion.

quote: These are the fools who thought that the Iraqi people would be lining the streets to cheer for them, and who planned a triumphant visit to Baghdad for Shrub during the handover that had to be cancelled because of the insurgency. It's not like this wasn't apparent before the whole thing started. But hey, it's not like these guys ever bothered listening to anyone.

Actually, there was a lot of cheering in the streets when people got aware of the fact that the regime had fallen, and since when has it been stupid to plan for the best outcome and then change plans when nessecary ?

Who says that they didn't listen ? Oh, the fact that they didn't act upon it. I guess that they have to listen to a lot, but if they should react to all of it, it would be plain chaos.

quote: quote: But you are right that Bush and the Neo-Cons have long been arguing that spreading democracy is what our foreign policy is about. The Iraq war had its pretexts. But the larger goal is the spread of freedom and democracy worldwide. Even if they believe this, it's still insane. Democracy doesn't arise at the barrel of a gun, except under certain rare circumstances. Besides, anyone that imputes selflessness to foreign policy is usually being naive.

Such as removing a dictator that never would allow democracy ? And especially one who had two sons that was even worse ?

Why should it be selflessness to create democracy ? Quite contrary, I'll call it selfinterest to make more countries democratic.

	01-05-2005 00:07									#145
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Agathon, I think the elections in January in Iraq proves the lie to your statement that people, once freed from tyranny, do not want democracy. This has always been the lie promulgated by the left precisely to twart America's effort to spread democracy and oppose communism. This was the very same argument made by the likes of Jane Fondal that we could not "impose" democracy on South Vietnam, as they are brown, uncivilized people incapable of political freedom.

	01-05-2005 00:09									#146
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As to your point on the UN, one of its stated goals is to spread freedom and democracy around the world. The problem is, we immediately subverted that goal when we allowed the USSR both membership and a veto. What in the world were we thinking when we did that?

	01-05-2005 00:20									#147
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quote: Agathon, I think the elections in January in Iraq proves the lie to your statement that people, once freed from tyranny, do not want democracy.

It was a farce. The Shias voted because they were told to. The Kurds voted because they want out.

The election was a joke and the government would not last 2 years if the US left right now.

quote: This has always been the lie promulgated by the left precisely to twart America's effort to spread democracy and oppose communism.

In this case it was more to thwart obvious idiocy.

quote: This was the very same argument made by the likes of Jane Fondal that we could not "impose" democracy on South Vietnam, as they are brown, uncivilized people incapable of political freedom.

People are quite capable of sorting it out for themselves. Democracy is not a peculiarly American idea, nor does it require American intervention to foster it (in fact Vietnam showed how counterproductive that can be).

quote: As to your point on the UN, one of its stated goals is to spread freedom and democracy around the world. The problem is, we immediately subverted that goal when we allowed the USSR both membership and a veto. What in the world were we thinking when we did that?

You don't understand the UN at all.

It was essential to let the Soviet Union have a vote. The purpose of the UN is to stop war and replace the rule of force with the rule of law. Of course you can't impose this on the great powers: hence they get a veto. The hope is that eventually the great powers will realize that the rule of law is in their interest and give it up. That hasn't happened yet, but there is no realistic alternative.

If you think a US hegemony is a realistic alternative, I've news for you. Most other countries will not see it as legitimate and will seek allies to protect themselves from it, and the US itself is not fit for the role – it cannot afford the military expenses required while placating American voters.

It just can't – this was the lesson of Vietnam.

And denying the USSR entry would have made the UN into exactly the sort of alliance that caused the wars the UN was designed to prevent. A similar argument applies to those who want the US kicked out of the UN. The UN has been moderately successful – almost no-one now believes that aggressive wars are legitimate, and nobody believes that conquered territory can be legitimately annexed. People didn't used to think this way.

	01-05-2005 00:27									#148
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No doubt that one of the reasons for the UN was to prevent future wars on the theory that the WWII allies would cooperate together in the future as they did against Germany and Japan. But, any realist even at the time would know that the USSR was only an ally of necessity and would itself been an object of war if Germany had not been first. There was a real screw loose in the thinking of the UN founders at the time.

BTW, I wonder what Churchill had to say about including the USSR in the new UN?

	01-05-2005 00:28									#149
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Even today I would like to see a new UN, or a rule change, that would limit active status to members who were in fact democracies.

	01-05-2005 00:29									#150
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Why do people insist on taking Agathon seriously?