27-04-2005 03:58									#1
	No Nazis in Austria Remove this text

Before I start with the real topic, I have to inform you all a little bit about Austrian politics (if you want to skip, the juicy bit is at the bottom in bold).
Probably you know that we have some guy called Jörg Haider here, who convinced protest voters to go with his ultra-right populist party (FPÖ)- a party that since its founding was also a harbor (not the only one though) of rehabilitated Nazis. The party was considered "National liberal" and from there you may see that there were always 2 wings, one more "liberal" and one more "Great-German". During Haider's rise, there was already one split, although the newly founded Liberal Party was rather short lived. In the past years, since Haider's party is in government, voters turned their back on the FPÖ and the old contrast between ultra-right and moderate became apparent again. Only recently, Haider founded a new movement (BZÖ), funnily enough supposed to leave the brown dirt in the "old FPÖ". Our new government is now Conservative-BZÖ.

Now, I want to give you an impression in what exactly the moderation of the new movement consists.
While a few days ago, senator (Bundesrat) Kampl (BZÖ, Carinthia) only claimed that "deserters from the Wehrmacht are comrade-murderers" and that there was a "brutal Nazi prosecution" in Austria after the war, senator Gudenus (FPÖ, Vienna - after this statement he left the FPÖ however) felt the necessity to top these statements by saying that "he does not want to decide if there were gas chambers in the Nazi era and that we should check again physical evidence".

Although the Austrian senate is commonly known to be absolutely powerless and as a general rule the most useless politicians are "promoted away" there, those 2 persons are actually elected delegates from the provincial parlaments, thus democratically fully legitimated! Neither can be eliminated from the senate without holding new elections in Carinthia or Vienna.
While the one from Carinthia will probably remain in his party yet possibly resigns by own will from the senate the other one left the FPÖ "to avoid damage from the party because of the debate" yet insists on remaining in his office.

Although all media bash this and very few people would sign this, I feel ashamed for my own country where such human dirt can get anywhere.

Great, today the 2nd Republic has its 60th anniversary.

Last edited by Wernazuma III on 27-04-2005 at 04:07

	27-04-2005 04:01									#2
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Most astoundingly, except for Austrian sites, as of yet only 3 French sites at google give results for "kampl gudenus" and NONE in English. I wonder if any media takes this up...

	27-04-2005 04:02									#3
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Just ask Ned - he can made this reasonable as long as you don't think by yourself.

	27-04-2005 04:10									#4
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And one other important detail:
Gudenus already denied to accept the reality of the Holocaust in 1995, when Haider was forced to call him back from parliament - as you can see this denial back then was not enough to expel him from the party, he was still good enough to serve as a senator a bit later so he could again bring shame over Austria.

	27-04-2005 04:22									#5
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I don't know if it will work in Austria - it demands a sense of humor.

In Denmark we actually have a Nazi party. They are nothing worth talking about - just some crazyheads, but they also are made utterly laughable (well, they do a good job themself in this), and everytime they tries to stick their ugly head up in a serious way, people of very different political view rally to put it down again.

Is that possible to implement in Austria ?

	27-04-2005 04:31									#6
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When I was in Vienna two weeks ago, I was fairly suprised by the lack of political correctness, at least in comparison to Germany. One perk of this un-PCness is the current campaign in Vienna, where the FPÖ candidate says (in huge letters on billboards) "Vienna must not become Istanbul".

Also, the Viennese don't seem to have problems displaying nazi memorabilia as the Germans. I'm not surprised that these politicians can get away with saying such things. By comparison, in Germany, political careers have been shattered for less

	27-04-2005 05:34									#7
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With Prussia now part of Poland, the way is wide open for Austria to move to the fore among the other German states, eventually absorbing them as Prussia once did.

Look for them to come to some agreement with Bavaria, that's how I see this reverse Auchluss as starting.

I see Austria, at the head of the 4th reich, invading France within 10 years.

	27-04-2005 05:36									#8
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You need to put an American in charge of Austria first. Otherwise, nobody would event hink of the idea

	27-04-2005 05:38									#9
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Ahhnold...

	27-04-2005 06:42									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer With Prussia now part of Poland, the way is wide open for Austria to move to the fore among the other German states, eventually absorbing them as Prussia once did. Look for them to come to some agreement with Bavaria, that's how I see this reverse Auchluss as starting.

Or the Poles make a Anschluss with us.

btw, there was a discussion not long ago to recreate Prussia.

Austria and Nazism? Well, Nazis held important positions in Germany for a long time. And the Wehrmacht is still regarded as an organization of resistance against Hitler among certain influential groups and officers of our army. Of course, German soldiers didn't commit crimes as well etc.
The foreign ministery is full of diplomats who claim that the ministery wasn't involved in NS policies.

We don't have a strong neo-fascist/neo-Nazi movement though.

	27-04-2005 06:52									#11
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No chance of a nazi 4th reich. If there was one there would be no chance of it thriving. No no, it would have to be nationalist AND socialist...erm, nevermind.

	27-04-2005 09:49									#12
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I thought is was illegal for the Nazi party to even exist in Europe?

	27-04-2005 14:41									#13
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That is a big bummer to the BZÖ I guess.. Haider was very clever with this move as he moved himself and the FPÖ into some kind of dead-end with all this nazi past affiliation crap.
Now it seems he couldn't get rid of it in the new party and thus it will suck. People are tired and sick to hear of nazis, from the people who claim there was no injustice as well as from the people who write books about all the horrors.

I doubt the FPÖ will live very long if it cannot establish itself in having e.g. economic competention or something like that... Well they could also put up that "small men crap" again, but I don't think people buy this anymore. The anti-EU tone and anti-Immigration tone is also getting on people's nerves as most have accepted to be part of the EU and eveyone knows it's impossible to get out, even if it was possible, so *****ing around is completely useless.

	27-04-2005 14:47									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Ahhnold...

WE HAVE FOUND THE NEW REICH'S FUHRER!

Where's the hitler smilie when you need it?

	27-04-2005 14:52									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan I thought is was illegal for the Nazi party to even exist in Europe?

Depends in which countries. It's illegal in Germany, as well as in France IIRC. It's legal in Denmark and I bet it's legal in Britain too, for example. Europe is not an homogenous bloc, and there are very real differences among the political cultures.

	27-04-2005 15:33									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Although all media bash this and very few people would sign this, I feel ashamed for my own country where such human dirt can get anywhere. Great, today the 2nd Republic has its 60th anniversary.

Yeah, it seems from time to time the dumbasses come out of their caves and try to influence the public view on the nazi era in their favor....our local brand of (neo) nazis tries this as well, but usually they disappear from the public discourse quite soon, since most of their stuff is just provocative, but has no substance. Still annoying that some people are not willing to learn anything.....

	27-04-2005 15:38									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan I thought is was illegal for the Nazi party to even exist in Europe?

The NSDAP, and parties that can count as NSDAP clones are illegal in Germany. However, there are a lot of extremist parties which you can call neonazi that exist legally here. Some have even made it into local parliaments although usually their presence there didn't last too long, since in day to day politics they have nothing to offer.

	27-04-2005 16:38									#18
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This topic was in the news here in Greece.

However since it's the week before Easter down here, everyone is talking about the exorbitant prices of lamb meat (14€ per kilo, them thieves!).

Plus, Vavylis was arrested in Italy

AND....

...the European Comission says ourgovernment does not have to humble itself so much as to rewrite our constitution according to EU law, they just have to take back the anti-corruption law they recently voted for and the law that existed before that (laws that according to the constitution forbid state contractors to own media and vice-versa). These are big news here, so there is no space for Austrian Neonazis.

	28-04-2005 01:38									#19
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Noone ever wanted to recreate Prussia, that was just a name thing.

	28-04-2005 01:57									#20
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quote: When I was in Vienna two weeks ago, I was fairly suprised by the lack of political correctness, at least in comparison to Germany. One perk of this un-PCness is the current campaign in Vienna, where the FPÖ candidate says (in huge letters on billboards) "Vienna must not become Istanbul".

An interesting historical allusion. I guess they'll be asking for Polish help next.

	28-04-2005 02:04									#21
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Random question: They're extremists. Is it actually possible for parties that could be considered neo-nazi to actually gain power? At least more in the excent that the communists have political power in the US?

Well, I guess they technically could, since America is the only country with a real two-party system, but unfortuanatly, I'm ignorant of Euorpean politics. That's too bad, too.

	28-04-2005 02:10									#22
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I just had a look on your website. It's hard to believe you turn 19 this year...

	28-04-2005 13:17									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Bill3000 Random question: They're extremists. Is it actually possible for parties that could be considered neo-nazi to actually gain power? At least more in the excent that the communists have political power in the US?

The FPÖ has been taking part to the ruling majority of Austria since the last general election.

Edit: Several European countries have a strong far-right AND a parliamentary system where a majority has to be a coalition. That's why it's possible to see the far right taking part to some governments.

However, many European countries have either a weak far right, or a political system that put only the strongest parties in power. Any of the two variables is enough to ensure that the far right won't be in power.

	28-04-2005 21:14									#24
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And Austria is not the only country where the extreme right is in the government. Italy has at least 2 extremist parties in government.

One good thing is that, once in government, all there rubbish hate speech proves to be as wothless as it is and they don't differ much from right wing parties that don't orally onanate (I don't know if that's a good thing, however... )

For example (and that is the good news), the "lesser" of those idiots (the BZÖ guy) had to resign after pressure from his party who in turn was pressured by the conservatives who were pressured by the media. The more overt Nazi refuses to do so but he can only do so because he left his party and excercises his "free mandate"...

	28-04-2005 21:33									#25
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In today's Tagesspiegel that issue was mentioned, Austrian right weingers denying olocaust sites.