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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:17
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ok. let me lay it out.
You can be FOR domestic producers, FOR domestic workers, and FOR protectionism.
You can be FOR the consumer.
Do you see how the consumer and the domestic workers are on opposite sides of the coin?
So when you say that higher imports hurt the consumer, I agree. BUt you are disagreeing with yourself, because you said earlier in the thread about protectionism that you were FOR tariffs, which hurt the consumer also. So which one is it. Are you FOR the consumer, or FOR the domestic worker. its one or the other.
then you say that Unions are against imports because it erodes their negociating power at the table. And I tell the unions that more imports means that their real wages go up. Just like you, the unions want it both ways, and you cant get it both ways. because higher union wages leads to higher prices, which erodes real wages; a vicious cycle.
and btw, any 'trade management' (is that the newest euphemism? what happened to 'fair trade.' that **** made me laugh) will do the things I described. Either you help the consumer or you help the domestic worker. YOU CANNOT DO BOTH.
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Whoha
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The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
time: 23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
ok. let me lay it out.
You can be FOR domestic producers, FOR domestic workers, and FOR protectionism.
You can be FOR the consumer.
Do you see how the consumer and the domestic workers are on opposite sides of the coin?
So when you say that higher imports hurt the consumer, I agree. BUt you are disagreeing with yourself, because you said earlier in the thread about protectionism that you were FOR tariffs, which hurt the consumer also. So which one is it. Are you FOR the consumer, or FOR the domestic worker. its one or the other.
then you say that Unions are against imports because it erodes their negociating power at the table. And I tell the unions that more imports means that their real wages go up. Just like you, the unions want it both ways, and you cant get it both ways. because higher union wages leads to higher prices, which erodes real wages; a vicious cycle.
and btw, any 'trade management' (is that the newest euphemism? what happened to 'fair trade.' that **** made me laugh) will do the things I described. Either you help the consumer or you help the domestic worker. YOU CANNOT DO BOTH. |
Why are the consumer and domestic worker different entities?
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
Do you see how the consumer and the domestic workers are on opposite sides of the coin?
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No they aren't.
quote:
So when you say that higher imports hurt the consumer, I agree. BUt you are disagreeing with yourself, because you said earlier in the thread about protectionism that you were FOR tariffs, which hurt the consumer also. So which one is it. Are you FOR the consumer, or FOR the domestic worker. its one or the other.
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Higher import prices can both hurt and help the consumer because the consumer is a worker. The question is, what is the net effect.
quote:
then you say that Unions are against imports because it erodes their negociating power at the table. And I tell the unions that more imports means that their real wages go up. Just like you, the unions want it both ways, and you cant get it both ways. because higher union wages leads to higher prices, which erodes real wages; a vicious cycle.
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I disagree that their real wages go up. That certainly has not happened. For example, it's tough to get a manufacturing job that pays more than the same job did 30 years ago.
quote:
and btw, any 'trade management' (is that the newest euphemism? what happened to 'fair trade.' that **** made me laugh) will do the things I described. Either you help the consumer or you help the domestic worker. YOU CANNOT DO BOTH. |
Nonsense.
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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:17
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sorry bro, in that case i cant help you. youre on your own.
quote:
Higher import prices can both hurt and help the consumer because the consumer is a worker. The question is, what is the net effect. |
positive, in both the short and the long run. as i said earlier, the number of jobs threatended as a ratio to the job market is very small, therefore there are net gains for the consumer.
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I disagree that their real wages go up. That certainly has not happened. For example, it's tough to get a manufacturing job that pays more than the same job did 30 years ago. |
again, you are only looking at one side of the coin. Real wages is equal to W/P, where W is wages, and P are prices. real wages go up if W increases or if P decreases. you dont need a job that pays more to have higher real wages, just have more imports and lower prices.
and yes you are right, many manufacturing jobs are experiencing lower real wages, because all the factories are closing. but in an economy, there are winners and losers, and in an open market, there are more winners then losers. people in the services sector gain, and since that makes up over 2/3rd of our population, its easy to see why real wages go up as imports increase.
and again, you can either have HIGHER wages for the manufacturing workers, and to dothat you need to keep out imports, and screw the other 66% of the workforce. its one or the other, the consumer or the worker.
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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:17
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quote:
An equilibrium price the market clearing price. If the market doesn't clear then you have a surplus. But how can you have a surplus in a free market? |
no, there wouldnt be a surplus. just because we dont trade doesnt mean that we arnt at equilibirum. it means that relative prices are different and people will choose the cheaper one. there is no surplus since people dont demand the higher priced good and thus it will not be imported
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If the exchange rate is the contraint to the system, and allowing it to be set by the market is further constraining the system. Then fixing it will eliminate the contraint. |
you cannot fix an exchange rate to provide equal prices across the board. a fixed exchange rate leads to problems such as corruption, stunted growth in certain sectors, and less economic growth on a whole. a fixed exchange rate like chinas, one which is fixed below the market value, will lead to less imports for them, and more exports. free trade is where you let the value of a countries goods and services and the demand for them in other countries be determined by the exchange rate: the more people value them, the more their currency will appreciate. this is a very usefull mechanism, because it means that you can then turn it around, and import more. a win win situation. free trade is not where you fix the exchange rate so it covers the difference between the prices of goods in two countries, because it not longer allows for demand and supply to work, and then you run into shortages/surpluses.
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29-04-2005 01:26
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